What now for the EU ?

Okay, I'll bite. Mainly economy of scale and a desire to mimic the US model of a federated super-state.

If you accept that a 'United States of Europe' makes sense, then all the above are trappings which are required to hold the states together and give them a common purpose. The idea is that national institutions whither on the vine and things like military, policing etc are done more efficiently at federal level than at state level.

For example, national military becomes equivalent to the Amercan 'National Guard' militias. In Italy, the Carabinieri would cease to have distinct role and could be merged with the national police or armed forces as necessary. The Euro Armed Forces would absorb increasing levels of national resources, with bases spread across the federated zone. A unified Europe might even then out-weigh the US contribution to NATO.

It then makes much more sense for bodies like OCCAR to procure on a European scale. Imagine giving Boeing, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin a heart attack with the collective bargaining power of all states with an emphasis on "buy European unless there's a very very good reason not to". Airbus, Eurofighter, MBDA would all be the beneficiaries. Rationalisation of the interests of BAES, Nexter, Rheinmetall, Saab Bofors Dynamics, Leonardo etc etc would soon follow. The Americans would not be able to continue to wage economic imperialism on the indvidual European states simply by picking off the national industries.

For politicians, state governers replace prime ministers or presidents; the state-level bureaucracy would shrink as more of the federal bureacracy replaced it with consistent and consolidated regulation. National parliaments then debate national responses to European initiatives and tell their European representatives what national issues to press. There could then be no prophet-like Farage raging against the European project becaus he could never be selected to represent the country.

The European contribution to Interpol would then be more focussed, with fewer points of interaction.

And so on and so on.

The dream was (still is?) to out-grow the Middle Ages and Renaissance and build an economic and social block to rival the US, the Russias and the Chinese hegemony.

The UK's original reason for joining was that the economic integration would bring benefits to all, without the need for political integration. By contrast, the European states saw political integration more as the thing to be desired, if only to prevent the internecine warfare that had plagued Europe since the break-up of the Roman empire. However, the response to the Covid pandemic showed the national states in Europe reverting to type and not acting collectively.

Given the divisions between the nation states, the European super-state was all a big pipe dream. With the UK gone, it is now a grotesque fantasy. France has never given up its national defence or agricultural priorities, Germany has been far too focussed on reunification and placating the Russias.

With UK gone, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Netherlands will be increasingly isolated. In effect, the EU ends up with a bankrupt Mediterranean faction being dictated to by belligerent France and Germany. Belgium with its lack of government for a year and a half showed that a national government didn't actually need to exist for the nation state to continue in the European framework.

No wonder Trump's US is so keen on separating Poland and punishing Germany for making Europe reliant on Russian gas imports. I'm surprised that the US hasn't courted UK more but since they forced us to de-colonise and then screwed us over Suez, I guess they're far less worried about us.

Bit of an essay, apologies. That's how I used to view the European project, having worked for many years in places like Germany, Sweden and Norway. [For the sharp-eyed, Norway isn't in the EU but co-exists quite happily (reasonably) alongside.]

These days, I would prefer UK to join an EFTA type arrangement along the lines of EurAtom and Euro Coal & Steel Community, and also including membership of EASA. But the EU has ruled that kind of thing out: UK must be seen to be punished for daring to leave the political project.

Lastly, I don't want to compete with Europe, but the world is a much smaller place now. I think UK separating from Europe makes calls for the break-up of the UK to be much more compelling. Why should Westminster be allowed to dominate these isles if it didn't want to join in the wider project?

To paraphrase the Chinese proverb (curse?): we now live in interesting times.
What the EU has achieved has been for politicians who've failed or been rejected at national level promoting themselves to a supra national burocracy and pretending to be in charge of Europe.
The reality is that the diverse populations stick to their nations, languages, traditions and cultures, occassionally take note of EU diktats then generally ignore them, while electing national politicians to deal with day to day life.

For any proposed USE, you'd need a directly elected parliament with power, a single central bank, single currency, single language.
Ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
 
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aardvark64

War Hero
Agreed about the politicos and the Euro-trough. Unfortunately, the European states were never far enough down the path to justify the steps the EC was taking.

However, a lot of the steps were in place or developing. My favourite was adoption of English as the lingua franca (ha!) for European documents. The French were really hacked off that it wasn't their language :) What better reason could there be for the UK staying in the EU than that alone!
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Agreed about the politicos and the Euro-trough. Unfortunately, the European states were never far enough down the path to justify the steps the EC was taking.

However, a lot of the steps were in place or developing. My favourite was adoption of English as the lingua franca (ha!) for European documents. The French were really hacked off that it wasn't their language :) What better reason could there be for the UK staying in the EU than that alone!
And would you Adam n Eve it, even though we have left, English is still an official language!
 

Oyibo

LE
It is the international language of science as well.
If I had a sou for the number of times a Frenchman has said to me "But French is the language of diplomacy."

They can't even differentiate between present and past tense.
 
Funnily enough, I voted Remain because I thought UK could still be a positive influence in Europe. But the country voted to leave and I accepted the result. Didn't like it, thought it was a mistake; but I accepted that not everyone in UK had as much vested emotionally in Europe as I did. So let's get on with cutting a deal.

Three years later, having seen what a hash the rump EU has made of so many issues, I support a no deal..

Without UK to steady the ship and to keep financing things, the Franco German carve-up project is mired in deep, dark and smelly waters without the proverbial paddle.
Its my general view the 'mistake', was less to do with farage, russian bots and all the other excuses and more the product of the EUs monumental inability to accept criticism, or division of any kind. So cameron was unable to get any reforms, because change is impossible.

After the referendum, the EU was simply unable to change its attitudes and simply assumed, we would scuttle back and that shows a breathtakingly shallow view of democracy. This same attitude, was evident during the covid negotiations and the EU is now in serious trouble and still can't accept it has to change, to survive.
 
After the referendum, the EU was simply unable to change its attitudes and simply assumed, we would scuttle back and that shows a breathtakingly shallow view of democracy.
This.:1:
I think many (myself included) thought it was just too complicated to leave and so voted for the status quo. However like you, over the past 4 years I have become more and more disolutioned with certain politicians and the EU in general. Barnier keeps banging on about a level playing field, when the field has never been level and is now full of pot holes and giant cow pats!
I am more convinced than ever that we are doing the right thing by leaving, and whilst we may have to take a hit in the short term, we will be better off in the long term as we will have control of most of the financial levers, without having to search for a compromise with 27 other members every time we want to sell a bent cucumber.
 

Truxx

LE
This.:1:
I think many (myself included) thought it was just too complicated to leave and so voted for the status quo. However like you, over the past 4 years I have become more and more disolutioned with certain politicians and the EU in general. Barnier keeps banging on about a level playing field, when the field has never been level and is now full of pot holes and giant cow pats!
I am more convinced than ever that we are doing the right thing by leaving, and whilst we may have to take a hit in the short term, we will be better off in the long term as we will have control of most of the financial levers, without having to search for a compromise with 27 other members every time we want to sell a bent cucumber.
I am not sure you can use the word "bent" any more.
 

philc

LE

And would you Adam n Eve it, even though we have left, English is still an official language!
International language of medicine, most of the Italian Doctors I knew spoke very good English.
 
This.:1:
I think many (myself included) thought it was just too complicated to leave and so voted for the status quo. However like you, over the past 4 years I have become more and more disolutioned with certain politicians and the EU in general. Barnier keeps banging on about a level playing field, when the field has never been level and is now full of pot holes and giant cow pats!
I am more convinced than ever that we are doing the right thing by leaving, and whilst we may have to take a hit in the short term, we will be better off in the long term as we will have control of most of the financial levers, without having to search for a compromise with 27 other members every time we want to sell a bent cucumber.
And the underlying difference between the UK rule of Law and that of the EU (as I've mentioned numerous times before):

As a citizen of the UK you are free to do anything you like, unless you break the Law.

As a citizen of the EU you can not do anything unless the Law permits it.

It's a fundamental difference between liberty of the individual and rule by decree. I don't like it, I don't want it and I prefer to live by the rule of Law of a free democracy.

The future of the EU will be driven by the dictatorial, non-representative, federal elite in Brussels. Until such time as the populace say "enough is enough". Unfortunately, revolutions of that kind are generally bloody and end badly. No thanks.
 
And the underlying difference between the UK rule of Law and that of the EU (as I've mentioned numerous times before):

As a citizen of the UK you are free to do anything you like, unless you break the Law.

As a citizen of the EU you can not do anything unless the Law permits it.

It's a fundamental difference between liberty of the individual and rule by decree. I don't like it, I don't want it and I prefer to live by the rule of Law of a free democracy.

The future of the EU will be driven by the dictatorial, non-representative, federal elite in Brussels. Until such time as the populace say "enough is enough". Unfortunately, revolutions of that kind are generally bloody and end badly. No thanks.
Indeed - as I've said many times 'Liberal' needs to be reclaimed and it's true origins made clear and understood.
 
I am not sure you can use the word "bent" any more.
Can you call it a shrink wrapped sexually suggestive Cucumber?
 
Agreed about the politicos and the Euro-trough. Unfortunately, the European states were never far enough down the path to justify the steps the EC was taking.
However, a lot of the steps were in place or developing. My favourite was adoption of English as the lingua franca (ha!) for European documents. The French were really hacked off that it wasn't their language :) What better reason could there be for the UK staying in the EU than that alone!
For me it was purely and simply a question of the sovereignty of the UK.
Nothing to do with immigration, IQ or educational levels or anything else, I live in France so how would immigration into the UK ever affect me?
Since the vote, as more and more discoveries have been made, and information found as to the true scale of deception practised upon us, I am more than ever convinced that I voted correctly.
The most annoying thing is that it was our own politicos having us over knowingly, I don't blame Brussels so much.
They are just a bunch of second-rate national failures at home themselves, but they all will come out of the other end very much personally enriched.
Project Fear has so much to answer for, and will be quoted in political studies forever as how not to run a disinformation campaign.
I also don't think a lot of people in the UK see how much disdain there is for everything Brussels and Strasbourg here in Europe, I certainly see it here and elsewhere when I am travelling and talking to ordinary taxpaying folk.
If the EU goes tits up tomorrow it would not affect my life, nor my neighbours lives one jot, but I would have a smile though.
 
If the EU goes tits up tomorrow it would not affect my life, nor my neighbours lives one jot, but I would have a smile though.
If the EU goes tits up,, effectively all that means is binning the EU commision and comissariate, the failed politicians and burocrats who cost a great deal but achieve nothing.
Bin it, save on expense and just have Councils of Ministers from member states' national governments, and the whole thing might, just, begin to be able to get things done.
 
If the EU goes tits up,, effectively all that means is binning the EU commision and comissariate, the failed politicians and burocrats who cost a great deal but achieve nothing.
Bin it, save on expense and just have Councils of Ministers from member states' national governments, and the whole thing might, just, begin to be able to get things done.
My neighbours, including farmers who have the most to lose (CAP) want to see the return of the Marché Commun, that didn't need 60,000 administrators and two extra (and needless) levels of politicians and support staff and the cost of this being €10.36 billion.
You can alleviate a lot of rural poverty and youth unemployment for that sort of money.
 
And the underlying difference between the UK rule of Law and that of the EU (as I've mentioned numerous times before):

As a citizen of the UK you are free to do anything you like, unless you break the Law.

As a citizen of the EU you can not do anything unless the Law permits it.

It's a fundamental difference between liberty of the individual and rule by decree. I don't like it, I don't want it and I prefer to live by the rule of Law of a free democracy.

The future of the EU will be driven by the dictatorial, non-representative, federal elite in Brussels. Until such time as the populace say "enough is enough". Unfortunately, revolutions of that kind are generally bloody and end badly. No thanks.
The thing is the Poles and Hungarians are already telling the EU to 'do one' in many things that they don't like, despite receiving far more out of the EU than they put in. The Federal elite in Brussels doesn't know what to do about it. It threatens and huffs and puffs, but is basicaly a toothless tiger. Its like the Austria-Hungarian Empire in 1914.
 
For me it was purely and simply a question of the sovereignty of the UK.
Nothing to do with immigration, IQ or educational levels or anything else, I live in France so how would immigration into the UK ever affect me?
Since the vote, as more and more discoveries have been made, and information found as to the true scale of deception practised upon us, I am more than ever convinced that I voted correctly.
The most annoying thing is that it was our own politicos having us over knowingly, I don't blame Brussels so much.
They are just a bunch of second-rate national failures at home themselves, but they all will come out of the other end very much personally enriched.
Project Fear has so much to answer for, and will be quoted in political studies forever as how not to run a disinformation campaign.
I also don't think a lot of people in the UK see how much disdain there is for everything Brussels and Strasbourg here in Europe, I certainly see it here and elsewhere when I am travelling and talking to ordinary taxpaying folk.
If the EU goes tits up tomorrow it would not affect my life, nor my neighbours lives one jot, but I would have a smile though.
My excellent is for all but mainly for the smile. :)

edit for for
 
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