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What now for the EU ?

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
From my reading on this in the dim and distant, I think part of the reason is that, for a given weight, an infantryman can carry a significantly greater number of 5.56 rounds than they can 7.62.

Once you've run out of ammo for your rifle, you're no longer an effective infantryman.

Wordsmith

There's an echo in here.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
The old fish trains used to run over night for Billingsgate early morning. Couple of refrigerated reefers on flats could sort the matter. There are other issues I grant but expense and connection are a problem since a lot of old track has been ripped up. Where I live the sidings are still there but we are not Harwich

Which is why it would be simpler and easier to lease an area of UK waters exclusively for EU trawlers - with a 20 mile DMZ around it - EU trawler strays through the DMZ and into UK waters the other side, it gets impounded. Charge each trawler a license fee to use UK waters and we make money out of it. It's cheaper and more cost effective than having to reinstate railway infrastructure.

We'd have to be careful about what areas are assigned to EU trawlers - they'd have to border EU waters. And we'd have to take fish migratory patterns into account - they don't stay into one place. We could put effective conservation measures into place and the EU could still impact on UK fish stocks by fishing their waters to extinction.

The main person making noises from the EU side is Marcon. His chances of re-election as French president are fading fast, so he has to appear aggressive in protecting the interests of the French trawler men. When he gets two fingers from BoJo, he'll say that he tried, but wasn't backed up by the EU.

Wordsmith
 
Reapers can / should wreak havoc on illegal fishing in UK territorial waters.

After 4 years of ARRSing about, illegal fishermen can hardly plead '' I didn't know ''

It will be a harsh, brutal lesson. but it will only take 1 lesson for the message to get rammed home.

The only ramming that will occur will be between our Fisheries Protection ships and French fishing boats.
 
You can carry more of them.

From my reading on this in the dim and distant, I think part of the reason is that, for a given weight, an infantryman can carry a significantly greater number of 5.56 rounds than they can 7.62.

There's an echo in here.

And that echo is still wrong.

The conversion from 7.62 to 5.56 was nothing to do with how many rounds could be carried.

A1 / A2 Ech ( whatever they are called nowadays ) resupply chain / pre-dumped cache's put paid to that notion.

The Doctrine changed in the early 80's from killing ( killing bad ) the enemy, to inflicting casualties ( casualties better in the public eye / supposedly degrades the enemies fighting ability ) on the enemy.

The ultra cynic in me says it was nothing more than a cost cutting effort ( which bit them severely on the ARRSE with the cost of ongoing SA 80 upgrades.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
From my reading on this in the dim and distant, I think part of the reason is that, for a given weight, an infantryman can carry a significantly greater number of 5.56 rounds than they can 7.62.

Once you've run out of ammo for your rifle, you're no longer an effective infantryman.

Wordsmith
So is running out of 5.56 more effective than running out of 7.62?
 

Truxx

LE
Which is why it would be simpler and easier to lease an area of UK waters exclusively for EU trawlers - with a 20 mile DMZ around it - EU trawler strays through the DMZ and into UK waters the other side, it gets impounded. Charge each trawler a license fee to use UK waters and we make money out of it. It's cheaper and more cost effective than having to reinstate railway infrastructure.

We'd have to be careful about what areas are assigned to EU trawlers - they'd have to border EU waters. And we'd have to take fish migratory patterns into account - they don't stay into one place. We could put effective conservation measures into place and the EU could still impact on UK fish stocks by fishing their waters to extinction.

The main person making noises from the EU side is Marcon. His chances of re-election as French president are fading fast, so he has to appear aggressive in protecting the interests of the French trawler men. When he gets two fingers from BoJo, he'll say that he tried, but wasn't backed up by the EU.

Wordsmith
All easily done. All fishing vessels carry, and are obliged to use, transponder equipment. So easy to track the legit ones. Any caught with the transponder off, heavy fine and boat seized.
 
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From my reading on this in the dim and distant, I think part of the reason is that, for a given weight, an infantryman can carry a significantly greater number of 5.56 rounds than they can 7.62.

Once you've run out of ammo for your rifle, you're no longer an effective infantryman.

Wordsmith
IIRC....and is was in excess of 30 years ago...

The change to 5.56 was something to do with other NATO armies & even the Soviets Kalashnikov using 5.56, the theory being it would be easier to scavenge rounds on a battlefield that would fit once you ran out.

Of course I may be totally wrong as being a member of HM's finest Corps such things as being anywhere near battlefields at the critical moment were generally beneath me..... :cool: :-D
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
IIRC....and is was in excess of 30 years ago...

The change to 5.56 was something to do with other NATO armies & even the Soviets Kalashnikov using 5.56, the theory being it would be easier to scavenge rounds on a battlefield that would fit once you ran out.

Of course I may be totally wrong as being a member of HM's finest Corps such things as being anywhere near battlefields at the critical moment were generally beneath me..... :cool: :-D

The Warpac went from 7.62x39 to 5.45x39 I think you will find.
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
The Doctrine changed in the early 80's from killing ( killing bad ) the enemy, to inflicting casualties ( casualties better in the public eye / supposedly degrades the enemies fighting ability ) on the enemy.
I remember reading at the time that a dead enemy, meh; a wounded enemy required twelve people to get him out of the line into medical care. No brainer.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I'm sure you probably would like that, however if I was going to get shot and I had a choice, I'd still rather be shot with 5.56 from 400m than a 7.62.

If I'm wearing something like ECBA, I'll take it the other way around: the soft armour will stop 7.62mm at 400m, 5.56mm still gets through. (Higher energy density and smaller impact area - the plates will stop either to pretty much point blank).

And a 5.56mm bullet hitting you in the torso, at 400m range, will leave you needing surgery and transfusions to have much chance of survival.

It's almost as if the people making these choices did it based on solid evidence...
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
I remember reading at the time that a dead enemy, meh; a wounded enemy required twelve people to get him out of the line into medical care. No brainer.

Alternatively one could appreciate that if you hurt one of the enemy there may be a response which could hurt you badly.

And a lot of enemies leave their wounded behind knowing they will be cared for by some twelve people who might well be catering for our own.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
The Doctrine changed in the early 80's from killing ( killing bad ) the enemy, to inflicting casualties ( casualties better in the public eye / supposedly degrades the enemies fighting ability ) on the enemy.

Nope, absolutely not - indeed the political controversy about 5.56mm in the 1970s (when the decision was being made) was that it was too lethal.

Pause and think about your standard platoon attack (or defence) by 1980s drills. When do casualties get attended to? Reorganisation phase, when you're securing the position, checking casualties, and redistributing ammunition. Until then, you leave them where they are.

If you've successfully attacked, you now own any enemy casualties, and if you "wounded them rather than killed them" it's now your G4 Med chain being burdened by having to care for them. If you've successfully defended, then, likewise, the enemy casualties in front of your position are your problem. The only way "wounded rather than dead" inconveniences the enemy is if they, rather than you, ended up winning the battle and holding the ground.


This is one of those myths (like how in 1982 HMS Sheffield's aluminium superstructure caught fire, or the Guardroom gangbang where it turned out the teenage prostitute was the RSM's daughter) oft told despite being bollocks.

The shift to 5.56mm was pushed by the rediscovery of how fast real-life combat consumed ammunition: the "four 20-round magazines and fifty rounds of link for the GPMG" that was plenty for a platoon attack on STANTA turned out to run out in the middle of a battalion attack (luckily at Goose Green the enemy considerately used the same calibre of ammunition and had stockpiles to overrun). Worse, the surprising difference between "eighty rounds of 7.62mm blank" and the same number of ball rounds, when it's loaded into your '58 pattern webbing...

We needed more rounds, we needed more hits at longer range (which L85/L86 delivered) and we needed less weight.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Well, as fascinating as all this my gun is better than yours chatter is, perhaps it could wait till WWIII breaks out, another Remain claim that seems to have failed to materialise.
 
Somebody needs to step away from the Toilet Duck.
Yes . . . but, can we start a rumour that we will re-adopt pounds, shillings, and pence . . . and watch the remainiac, snowflakes, implode in a state of catatonic apoplexy ;) !!
 
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Well, as fascinating as all this my gun is better than yours chatter is, perhaps it could wait till WWIII breaks out, another Remain claim that seems to have failed to materialise.

bugger, should I reduce my stash of 7.62?
 

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