what is /was

I think you may well stir the Ghost of Stalker. This was the argument that eventually ended up in the European Court of Human Rights. The results were, as they were in the UK courts, inconclusive.
Stalker did not investigate any shootings carried out by the British military.
 
Am sorry, are you suggesting the squadron/ troop/det working with information received strived to kill instead of arrest known players throughout the 70/80/90/00/10s that prevented special branch and mi5 from dealing with those they wished to chat to.
I am saying that the squadrons deployed during those years certainly killed many terrorists in many extremely effective counter-terrorist operations. Yes.

Are you unaware of this simple fact?

I never suggested at any time that this was not the desired outcome by anyone in the UK security services, where did you get that idea from?
 
Stalker did not investigate any shootings carried out by the British military.
Indeed the focus of the official enquiry was the activities of the RUC. His later unofficial rooting about encompassed Loughgall.
 
I am saying that the squadrons deployed during those years certainly killed many terrorists in many extremely effective counter-terrorist operations. Yes.

Are you unaware of this simple fact?

I never suggested at any time that this was not the desired outcome by anyone in the UK security services, where did you get that idea from?
Other than you've missed the valid point that the vast majority of their ops involved being dug into a Blackthorn hedgerow and crapping into plastic bags which were then left at a distant collecting point or, failing that, brought out with them at the end of the Op or hunkered down in a shitty, damp house/attic and carrying out the same drills, you're spot on.

For every shooty/bangy session, there would have been a damned sight more of the former.

Stop making stuff up.
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Er, when it came to a certain regiment, yes it was. They weren't special constables expected to make arrests, when they were deployed the end result was pretty much assured.
I'd have to invite you to quote some sources for that; it certainly doesn't fit with what I know.
 
Good to see this thread has gone down the usual Arrse route. Excellent
 
I'd have to invite you to quote some sources for that; it certainly doesn't fit with what I know.
Good heavens, a lot of people here seem to be getting very precious about something that most people would have regarded as really rather obvious. The RUC was the organisation that was primarily responsible for arresting suspects in Northern Ireland, they were a large well-trained, well-armed, well-equipped and well-funded modern police force with some of the finest facilities any police force could require.

The Special Air Service, for that is whom we are discussing, was and is a military unit deployed to Northern Ireland to carry out covert operations that were determined to be too specialised for police officers and regular Army. Are we ok so far? Have I said anything that could possibly upset anyone?

When they came into contact with terrorists on operation their modus operandi, to my admittedly non-specialist knowledge, was not to raise an arm, blow a whistle and say "Stop there you miscreant, I arrest you in the name of the Queen", that generally wasn't thought to be the best practice. They had rather more robust SOPs, and given the circumstances they didn't usually involve booking in arrestees with the sergeant back in the local nick.

I am happy to provide links to the many occasions on which Special Forces came into contact with suspected terrorists in Northern Ireland which did not require the use of the 1984 Police and Criminal Evidence Act, but I hardly need to do so, do I?
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Good heavens, a lot of people here seem to be getting very precious about something that most people would have regarded as really rather obvious. The RUC was the organisation that was primarily responsible for arresting suspects in Northern Ireland, they were a large well-trained, well-armed, well-equipped and well-funded modern police force with some of the finest facilities any police force could require.

The Special Air Service, for that is whom we are discussing, was and is a military unit deployed to Northern Ireland to carry out covert operations that were determined to be too specialised for police officers and regular Army. Are we ok so far? Have I said anything that could possibly upset anyone?

When they came into contact with terrorists on operation their modus operandi, to my admittedly non-specialist knowledge, was not to raise an arm, blow a whistle and say "Stop there you miscreant, I arrest you in the name of the Queen", that generally wasn't thought to be the best practice. They had rather more robust SOPs, and given the circumstances they didn't usually involve booking in arrestees with the sergeant back in the local nick.

I am happy to provide links to the many occasions on which Special Forces came into contact with suspected terrorists in Northern Ireland which did not require the use of the 1984 Police and Criminal Evidence Act, but I hardly need to do so, do I?
What colour is the sky on your planet? I'm going to guess Emerald Green.
 

morsk

LE
The RUC was the organisation that was primarily responsible for arresting suspects in Northern Ireland, they were a large well-trained, well-armed, well-equipped and well-funded modern police force with some of the finest facilities any police force could require.
Its almost as if you were there. Nowhere has there ever been such an accurate description

The Special Air Service, for that is whom we are discussing, was and is a military unit deployed to Northern Ireland to carry out covert operations that were determined to be too specialised for police officers and regular Army.
And there we were thinking different. Thank Bod for you, showing us all the truth. Does your Mum still pin your mittens on a string through the arms of your coat?
 
Good heavens, a lot of people here seem to be getting very precious about something that most people would have regarded as really rather obvious. The RUC was the organisation that was primarily responsible for arresting suspects in Northern Ireland, they were a large well-trained, well-armed, well-equipped and well-funded modern police force with some of the finest facilities any police force could require.

The Special Air Service, for that is whom we are discussing, was and is a military unit deployed to Northern Ireland to carry out covert operations that were determined to be too specialised for police officers and regular Army. Are we ok so far? Have I said anything that could possibly upset anyone?

When they came into contact with terrorists on operation their modus operandi, to my admittedly non-specialist knowledge, was not to raise an arm, blow a whistle and say "Stop there you miscreant, I arrest you in the name of the Queen", that generally wasn't thought to be the best practice. They had rather more robust SOPs, and given the circumstances they didn't usually involve booking in arrestees with the sergeant back in the local nick.

I am happy to provide links to the many occasions on which Special Forces came into contact with suspected terrorists in Northern Ireland which did not require the use of the 1984 Police and Criminal Evidence Act, but I hardly need to do so, do I?
I guess that various iterations of the PTA and EPA passed you by, then?

Tell me, how many BANNER tours did you complete?
 
According to Mark Urban, I think it was - quoting a member of the SAS - the ratio of arrest:death of suspect during 'their' ops was something like 75:25. I appreciate that there will be those who note that Urban's background might make him more credulous/sympathetic to a source, but I don't think that these figures have been openly questioned by independent sources.

It was inevitable that the instances in which the suspects were shot would attract far more attention; it's also the case that shootings by other units were misattributed to the gentlemen from Hereford. Yet if you look at the arrest of the M60 gang (Fusco, et al) after they'd murdered the troop commander; the lifting of the South Armagh sniper team, etc, then there is evidence that the SAS didn't necessarily work on a 'Ooh, they twitched in a manner I disliked. Let's put a dozen rounds down range just in case' basis.

I know that in the latter example above, the team was instructed that McGinn et al were to be returned alive (their rather hard arrest has been discussed elsewhere on Arrse), but the notion that the SAS only turned up and shot people isn't borne out by the reality, even if the Daily Mail and Daily Express were particularly eager to link every dead member of PIRA and INLA to an 'SAS ambush'.
 
Who used the term "murder"? Only you so far.
Because the bollocks you are suggesting is. Where do you get your narrative from? Warlord or Commando.

Jebus, there’s greater understanding of the British Army over on the recruitment threads.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
Good to see this thread has gone down the usual Arrse route. Excellent
Not really, it's been disrupted by the usual suspect from the jewel that is Londonderry scrabbling about earlier to find out what was going on, only to then to attempt to dominate by posting his usual bigoted diatribe while throwing in a few insults along the way. So, it could've been a decent thread if it wasn't for you @Mike Barton ...
 
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The Special Air Service, for that is whom we are discussing, was and is a military unit deployed to Northern Ireland to carry out covert operations that were determined to be too specialised for police officers and regular Army. Are we ok so far? Have I said anything that could possibly upset anyone?
I have an extended family member who worked in Northern Ireland for a certain governmental agency and spent time, amongst other things, keeping an eye on certain naughty boys. His job was to observe and collect information, often in highly dangerous situations. Of course, the media view of what he was there to do and who he was working for probably has him driving an Aston Martin and engaging in firefights on skis or something.
 
I am saying that the squadrons deployed during those years certainly killed many terrorists in many extremely effective counter-terrorist operations. Yes.

Are you unaware of this simple fact?

I never suggested at any time that this was not the desired outcome by anyone in the UK security services, where did you get that idea from?
Thanks for clarifying any chance of some actual events please.
 
According to Mark Urban, I think it was - quoting a member of the SAS - the ratio of arrest:death of suspect during 'their' ops was something like 75:25. I appreciate that there will be those who note that Urban's background might make him more credulous/sympathetic to a source, but I don't think that these figures have been openly questioned by independent sources.

It was inevitable that the instances in which the suspects were shot would attract far more attention; it's also the case that shootings by other units were misattributed to the gentlemen from Hereford. Yet if you look at the arrest of the M60 gang (Fusco, et al) after they'd murdered the troop commander; the lifting of the South Armagh sniper team, etc, then there is evidence that the SAS didn't necessarily work on a 'Ooh, they twitched in a manner I disliked. Let's put a dozen rounds down range just in case' basis.

I know that in the latter example above, the team was instructed that McGinn et al were to be returned alive (their rather hard arrest has been discussed elsewhere on Arrse), but the notion that the SAS only turned up and shot people isn't borne out by the reality, even if the Daily Mail and Daily Express were particularly eager to link every dead member of PIRA and INLA to an 'SAS ambush'.
As you rightly say Urban specifically cites the McGinn arrest as one of the few examples of an operation where it was made clear that the end result should be a suspect still engaging in gaseous exchange and this relates to the circumstances of the Peace Process, had that not been at a delicate point the injunction might not have been made.

Reading the posters here you'd be under the impression that no other result could possibly have been foreseen that fluffy handcuffs and a nice warm cup of tea was the usual order of the day.

Who knew so many naive idiots posted here?
 

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