Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to join our community
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site, connect with other members through your own private inbox and will receive smaller adverts!

What is Leadership

A bit like when it kicks off in the Sgts’ Mess and the CO is in. “We’ve got this in hand Sir, best you go home”

Possibly. It depends what you mean by kick off. Said CO would likely expect to have some business waiting outside his office next morning but its not his job to get them there.
 
But he wouldn’t have been much use as a strategic leader if he had died would he?

There’s something seriously wrong if a stategic leader has to go into harms way as a tactical responder in order to be credible. There’s something wrong with both the leadership and followership culture if a strategic leader has to get stuck in asna repsonder.
I have many problems with his actions in this. Some of that is about doing nothing when a brother is in mortal danger; some of that is about his lack of what used to be taught at RMAS as officership - command, example, responsibility; he didn't take command, he didn't show a good example and he didn't take responsibility. But in a way that pales when I read his excuses.

He said: "I could see PC Palmer moving backwards and him going down...​
"The thing that still shakes me about the attack is that it was 80-plus seconds in total. It didn't feel like that, it felt an awfully long time."​
Almost like he was watching telly, in all this his estimate led him to

"That's when I thought: 'I have got to start putting everything we need in place. We have got no protective equipment, no radio, I have got two colleagues with me who are quite distressed,' so we moved out."​
This sounds like prevarication to me, defecting from the actual incident and busying himself with something that make feel he's doing something. How does distressed compare to being attacked by a nutter wielding two big FO knives? There is also shifting the problem from what is he going to do to it being a collective responsibility of everyone with him. He was the senior officer and should have taken command. As someone else has suggested he should have gone out and tried to calm it down, warn others around then put himself between civis and the threat if that became necessary.

"If anyone had got out, the way this Masood was looking, anyone who got in his way would have been a target."​
This is awful, everyone out there can get hurt but not me, i'm alright jack. At that point did he forget that he was a copper.

The armed forces and the police are unique in that we know that when we sign on we have given up certain rights that everyone else takes for granted. Certainly for the armed forces that includes, if necessary, being called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect our people and our nation - I am pretty sure tis fundamental to the role of the police. It's a part of the job and if one of the most senior officers in the police doesn't understand that at the most basic they are there to put themselves between the people and danger then the system has allowed the wrong people to get to the top.

Cressida Dick needs to grip this. I think her silence is rather poor and I suspect the damage done to police morale at a time when it is already pretty low is going to be difficult to repair.
 
One of the police officers who today received the George Cross today thanked a couple who stopped to help him. Posted just to make the point that there are decent people out there who are doing the right thing even when situations are very tough.

'As Mr Guenigault (the George Cross recipient) lay on the floor with his injuries, a couple walking by ran to help him.

Ellen Gauntlett and Justin Jones came to his aid after he was stabbed, and stayed with him the whole night.

Mr Guenigault admitted he can’t thank them enough for what they did, saying: “After I had gone to the floor, I was just laying on the floor still conscious and I saw Justin and Ellen come over to me. I told Justin straight away he needs to put his knee on my back to stop any bleeding and told Ellen to call the police.

“They stayed with me there even when gunshots were going off. They took me to hospital and stayed with me in hospital, until they knew I was going to get through it.

“I can’t thank them enough for what they did – to stay there and keep me talking and awake.

“It just shows you don’t have to be a police officer to do something amazing as well.”
 
I have many problems with his actions in this. Some of that is about doing nothing when a brother is in mortal danger; some of that is about his lack of what used to be taught at RMAS as officership - command, example, responsibility; he didn't take command, he didn't show a good example and he didn't take responsibility. But in a way that pales when I read his excuses.

He said: "I could see PC Palmer moving backwards and him going down...​
"The thing that still shakes me about the attack is that it was 80-plus seconds in total. It didn't feel like that, it felt an awfully long time."​
Almost like he was watching telly, in all this his estimate led him to

"That's when I thought: 'I have got to start putting everything we need in place. We have got no protective equipment, no radio, I have got two colleagues with me who are quite distressed,' so we moved out."​
This sounds like prevarication to me, defecting from the actual incident and busying himself with something that make feel he's doing something. How does distressed compare to being attacked by a nutter wielding two big FO knives? There is also shifting the problem from what is he going to do to it being a collective responsibility of everyone with him. He was the senior officer and should have taken command. As someone else has suggested he should have gone out and tried to calm it down, warn others around then put himself between civis and the threat if that became necessary.

"If anyone had got out, the way this Masood was looking, anyone who got in his way would have been a target."​
This is awful, everyone out there can get hurt but not me, i'm alright jack. At that point did he forget that he was a copper.

The armed forces and the police are unique in that we know that when we sign on we have given up certain rights that everyone else takes for granted. Certainly for the armed forces that includes, if necessary, being called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect our people and our nation - I am pretty sure tis fundamental to the role of the police. It's a part of the job and if one of the most senior officers in the police doesn't understand that at the most basic they are there to put themselves between the people and danger then the system has allowed the wrong people to get to the top.

Cressida Dick needs to grip this. I think her silence is rather poor and I suspect the damage done to police morale at a time when it is already pretty low is going to be difficult to repair.
Probably the most comprehensive summing-up of all the (relevant) opinions here, and almost certainly the DS answer (so to speak). Well said.
 
I have many problems with his actions in this. Some of that is about doing nothing when a brother is in mortal danger; some of that is about his lack of what used to be taught at RMAS as officership - command, example, responsibility; he didn't take command, he didn't show a good example and he didn't take responsibility. But in a way that pales when I read his excuses.

He said: "I could see PC Palmer moving backwards and him going down...​
"The thing that still shakes me about the attack is that it was 80-plus seconds in total. It didn't feel like that, it felt an awfully long time."​
Almost like he was watching telly, in all this his estimate led him to

"That's when I thought: 'I have got to start putting everything we need in place. We have got no protective equipment, no radio, I have got two colleagues with me who are quite distressed,' so we moved out."​
This sounds like prevarication to me, defecting from the actual incident and busying himself with something that make feel he's doing something. How does distressed compare to being attacked by a nutter wielding two big FO knives? There is also shifting the problem from what is he going to do to it being a collective responsibility of everyone with him. He was the senior officer and should have taken command. As someone else has suggested he should have gone out and tried to calm it down, warn others around then put himself between civis and the threat if that became necessary.

"If anyone had got out, the way this Masood was looking, anyone who got in his way would have been a target."​
This is awful, everyone out there can get hurt but not me, i'm alright jack. At that point did he forget that he was a copper.

The armed forces and the police are unique in that we know that when we sign on we have given up certain rights that everyone else takes for granted. Certainly for the armed forces that includes, if necessary, being called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect our people and our nation - I am pretty sure tis fundamental to the role of the police. It's a part of the job and if one of the most senior officers in the police doesn't understand that at the most basic they are there to put themselves between the people and danger then the system has allowed the wrong people to get to the top.

Cressida Dick needs to grip this. I think her silence is rather poor and I suspect the damage done to police morale at a time when it is already pretty low is going to be difficult to repair.
Have you got anything new to offer or are you happy reiterating one of the four standpoints of the discussion?
 
But he wouldn’t have been much use as a strategic leader if he had died would he?

There’s something seriously wrong if a stategic leader has to go into harms way as a tactical responder in order to be credible. There’s something wrong with both the leadership and followership culture if a strategic leader has to get stuck in asna repsonder.

The lower ranks must stay and defend and the higher ranks are allowed to run away,
What is the lowest rank allowed to run away?
The man was there he should have helped the PC
 
But he wouldn’t have been much use as a strategic leader if he had died would he?

There’s something seriously wrong if a stategic leader has to go into harms way as a tactical responder in order to be credible. There’s something wrong with both the leadership and followership culture if a strategic leader has to get stuck in asna repsonder.
Totally agree with you if that was the plan from the outset. But this was a situation that developed right in front of his eyes.
 

New posts

Top