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What is Leadership

My bold, thats right with hindsight we all know what should have been done...

Do scroll back and read the comments about squaddies helping each other out, I must have not read them correctly because I didnt see anyone say say squaddies would only help each other out if a blade was involved.
Clearly squaddies dont always help each other out do they? (But that fine apparently because they rarely get stabbed)

Have you served in the army? When the flying **** have officers or anyone else normally driven around with PPE when they are on duty outside of NI? For my ROO/ROS duty I wear barrack dress not body armour and a helmet. Are you suggesting I should tell my lads to carry their SA80s in their car when there is a heighten terrorist threat?

Most people probably wouldnt have turned into Jean-Claude Camille François Van Varenberg and started filling in the knifeman either. Some people would have shit their pants, some would freeze, duck and hide, or do something really stupid.

What exactly has he been found wanting for? A 56 year man doesnt immediately react correctly to a shit situation.

You are talking formidable b0llocks.

In an operational area, all soldiers are expected to carry the requisite kit with them at all times, that includes officers, of any rank.

What was Mackey's job? What organisation was he a part of? What is the role of that organisation? What was the threat state in London at the time? Seems to me he was in an operational area.

Of course he didn't need to have his kit with him because he's a VSO and he'll never get... oooops.

By the way, age may excuse your performance, but you still have to show up.
 
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Oh look

PC sacked for not helping store guard

Junior officers fired for much less.

How lucky accountability only flows downwards.

Not carrying PPE, His fault, discipline him.

Not fit enough to do his job, his fault discipline him.

Failed to come to the aid of colleagues, his fault discipline him.

Except that rank has privillege, and that privillege is being unaccountable.
 
You are talking formidable b0llocks.

In an operational area, all soldiers are expected to carry the requisite kit with them at all times, that includes officers, of any rank.

What's was Mackey's job? What organisation was he a part of? What is the role of that organisation? What was the threat state in London at the time? Seems to me he was in an operational area.

Of course he didn't need to have his kit with him because he's a VSO and he'll never get... oooops.

By the way, age may excuse your performance, but you still have to show up.


Do most of the British army in mainland Britain carry around their PPE/weapons all the time when the alert state is high? When the IRA were actually bombing UK bases, did everyone put on body armour and sign out a weapon?

Want to go on about the role of the British army? I thought not, because you know full well that some people in the army are tooled up and others have different roles, just like coppers.
 
My bold, thats right with hindsight we all know what should have been done...

Do scroll back and read the comments about squaddies helping each other out, I must have not read them correctly because I didnt see anyone say say squaddies would only help each other out if a blade was involved.
Clearly squaddies dont always help each other out do they? (But that fine apparently because they rarely get stabbed)

Have you served in the army? When the flying **** have officers or anyone else normally driven around with PPE when they are on duty outside of NI? For my ROO/ROS duty I wear barrack dress not body armour and a helmet. Are you suggesting I should tell my lads to carry their SA80s in their car when there is a heighten terrorist threat?

Most people probably wouldnt have turned into Jean-Claude Camille François Van Varenberg and started filling in the knifeman either. Some people would have shit their pants, some would freeze, duck and hide, or do something really stupid.

What exactly has he been found wanting for? A 56 year man doesnt immediately react correctly to a shit situation.
He should not have fled. That's it. Would he have kicked the terror monkeys bollocks up his throat, no. But by at least staying in visual of a wounded subordinate and coordinating (no radio? 5 year olds have smart phones use that) he would not have landed himself in the brown which only you seem to think he is not.
 
Do most of the British army in mainland Britain carry around their PPE/weapons all the time when the alert state is high? When the IRA were actually bombing UK bases, did everyone put on body armour and sign out a weapon?

Want to go on about the role of the British army? I thought not, because you know full well that some people in the army are tooled up and others have different roles, just like coppers.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/op-temperer-activated.264708/

Funny thing, it was the Infantry that got used instead of the RLC, skills and drills or common sense dating back to the infantry, preceding the Police when it came to keeping the public in order.

For those unaware the Fifth Monarchy were dealt with by the Coldstreams.
 
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https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/op-temperer-activated.264708/

Funny thing, it was the Infantry that got used instead of the RLC, skills and drills or common sense dating back to the infantry, preceding the Police when it came to keeping the public in order.

For those unaware the Fifth Monarchy were dealt with by the Coldstreams.

Not quite sure what that has to do with the vast majority of soldiers not being kitted up regardless of the alert state?
 
Do most of the British army in mainland Britain carry around their PPE/weapons all the time when the alert state is high? When the IRA were actually bombing UK bases, did everyone put on body armour and sign out a weapon?

Want to go on about the role of the British army? I thought not, because you know full well that some people in the army are tooled up and others have different roles, just like coppers.

Why are you blathering on about what the army does in the mainland UK?

The army is not responsible for law and order in the mainland UK, and broadly had no responsibilities in that area even during the Troubles. It's the job of the police, therefore it is their operational area and they should be prepared to do it, even if their expectations at the time involve tea and buns with the Minister. If the British Army wishes to wander about with a balloon on a stick, it's immaterial, it's not an operational area... yet.
 
Not quite sure what that has to do with the vast majority of soldiers not being kitted up regardless of the alert state?
Congratulations, you can add one more to the list you have, deliberately I suspect, riled.

The carrying of PPE was, at the time of the attack, mandatory for all officers in the Met when out of the station. Regardless of what they were about. It was a Standing Order.

Now you're not usually shy about calling out your seniors for their, in your eyes, failings. Lets say you're in a MOB on Ops and the Alert State is such that all are supposed to be wearing their Osprey and carrying an unloaded PW. That's about how things stood when I was last at Bastion. Now what would you say if you spied your CO nipping to a meeting across camp without his swag? In contravention of his Standing Orders? Be honest now.

Second question. And again be honest. You're the packet commander of 6 trucks on a road move in the UK and take a scheduled break at a services. On the way back to the vehicles one of your blokes is attacked and stabbed. It's happened before and will happen again. You're 20m away, the rest of the blokes are already at their vehicles on the far side of the car park. You can see your Pte has been stabbed but not the extent of his injuries. You know there is Security on site but not where they are. What do you do? Honest answer now.
 
It will be interesting to see if the Coroner makes any pertinent comments during his summing up. It's probably the only opinion that will really matter.
 
Congratulations, you can add one more to the list you have, deliberately I suspect, riled.

The carrying of PPE was, at the time of the attack, mandatory for all officers in the Met when out of the station. Regardless of what they were about. It was a Standing Order.

Now you're not usually shy about calling out your seniors for their, in your eyes, failings. Lets say you're in a MOB on Ops and the Alert State is such that all are supposed to be wearing their Osprey and carrying an unloaded PW. That's about how things stood when I was last at Bastion. Now what would you say if you spied your CO nipping to a meeting across camp without his swag? In contravention of his Standing Orders? Be honest now.

Second question. And again be honest. You're the packet commander of 6 trucks on a road move in the UK and take a scheduled break at a services. On the way back to the vehicles one of your blokes is attacked and stabbed. It's happened before and will happen again. You're 20m away, the rest of the blokes are already at their vehicles on the far side of the car park. You can see your Pte has been stabbed but not the extent of his injuries. You know there is Security on site but not where they are. What do you do? Honest answer now.
m

I can answer that - the "security" at the services will mostly be of African heritage and be sub-contracted 3rd party by the initial contract holder. They will"be busy" doing other things if anything at all kicks off. If for some reason they do get "involved" in something"...which is pretty unlikely as they get their heads down at 23:00...they will promptly leg it and never be seen again or...phone their control room and spend ten minutes trying to explain in broken English that they need police to attend.

Can't speak about army but in the RN, officers DO get bollocked as it were for not complying with directives- by lower ranks and even junior rates. My personal best was "zip-lipping" "redcrown" on AAWC down the gulf. I was a mere leading hand at the time. Redcrown was some yank admiral commanding the whole task force.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your comment-Ive been up 28 hrs...
 
I don’t believe for one minute that anyone here is advocating that Mackey should have piled in and tried to re-enact Harrison Ford’s London scene in Patriot games, however he should have done something, anything that would have displayed the command presence expected of someone holding his rank, even if that something was asking if everyone else was ok or offering some words of support in the immediate aftermath. Sitting in his car in a funk was poor, leaving the scene post haste compounded that imo.
 
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interesting theres quite a few calling you out on your shite patter

Interesting that quite a few people are tough guys on the internet, same as when a picture of a fat trout is put up and people say "I've done worse" because they are also a stud muffin on the internet. Rarely meet them in real life though.
 

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