What is Leadership

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
I think the person/persons to blame are those that removed the armed officers from the gate. If the first line of defence for a site as important as the HoP is a guy with a stick then there needs to be repercussions higher up the CoC and not just those who were there on the day.

Even if Mackay was following protocol by staying in the car, what happened to supporting your guys. As has been said nobody knows how they will react to a situation until it actually happens but I would like to think the majority of us would have done something even if it was just throwing things from a distance to distract until support arrived,
It makes me wonder if had ever been in a position to ask for “urgent assistance” as a PC. That’s what you shouted down your radio when all hell was let lose, coppers in the canteen who had just sat down to refs and were about to tuck in would drop everything leave their food where it was and be in the cars in a flash. In an inner city area you would here coppers answering urgent assistance calls from neighbouring boroughs to help a colleague.
This man (term used loosely),as said before should be bloody ashamed of himself.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
I gave a funny, because I laughed out, really loud. That is excellent, oh how I hope that gets printed off and stuck up around the nicks.
 
I'm struggling to visualise what exactly he would have contributed.

Had he stayed what actually would he have done? Yelled "Sidearm!" at the CP guys and despatched the attacker himself? Elbowed a paramedic out of the way (or indeed anyone who was applying first aid) because his rank makes him better at everything? Told the local commander to "Go and get a coffee. I've got this"? All of the above?

EDIT Quote placement fixed.
A bit like when it kicks off in the Sgts’ Mess and the CO is in. “We’ve got this in hand Sir, best you go home”
 
No 'since' about it really that odious creature has been dodging responsibility since that poor Brazilian was offed by the Met and she will continue to get away with it until she is elevated to the Lords.

You may also recall the furore at the start of the inquest process when PC Palmer's family could not get Legal Aid but the Met and it's 'Leaders' were all lead in by very expensive QCs paid for out of public funds.

I don't disagree with your point though
“Offed by the Met” are you sure?
 
His retirement was announced in July this year. Westminster was in 2017.

Met's Deputy Commissioner announces his retirement after more than 34 years' service

Home Secretary Sajid Javid said: “Sir Craig has been a committed leader within the Metropolitan Police during one of the most testing times in London’s history.

He displayed fortitude and leadership as Acting Commissioner during the 2017 Westminster attack and I want to personally thank him for his service.
My bold... WHAT FORTITUDE, WHAT LEADERSHIP? That statement surely must be one of the most idiotic comments from a politician about this whole incident.
The gutless creature so referred to has got a chest full of tacky "awards" for being nothing but a time served, brown nosed, pencil pusher, who no doubt has made a career from avoiding real front line policing where our police used to confront armed men with nothing more that a wooden stick and probably attended all the usual pc courses in diversity and not upsetting the usual vociferous minorities. Not one award for bravery or record number of arrests or case clear up statistics, just what appears to be the typical modern career path of modern senior Police.
The whole Police structure today is IMHO, no longer fit for purpose. Much can be laid at successive Govts. feet with continual cut backs but a lot can be laid at the feet of Senior Police leaders who have given in to politically correct pressures, going back probably as far as the old "institutional racist" accusations, when they should have insisted that the police MUST uphold/enforced the law of our land irrespective of colour, race or creed, rather than treat certain ethnicities/religions with kid gloves"
 
Given that she didn't make a mistake and made all the right decisions considering the information she had at the time, can you explain why she should take responsibility?
Inaccurate as usual
What is your issue with her? You seem to have a wierdly deep hatred of someone you can't have encountered professionally.
A bit similar to your hatred of the officer under discussion, is Dick your sister or something?
 
My bold... WHAT FORTITUDE, WHAT LEADERSHIP? That statement surely must be one of the most idiotic comments from a politician about this whole incident.
The gutless creature so referred to has got a chest full of tacky "awards" for being nothing but a time served, brown nosed, pencil pusher, who no doubt has made a career from avoiding real front line policing where our police used to confront armed men with nothing more that a wooden stick and probably attended all the usual pc courses in diversity and not upsetting the usual vociferous minorities. Not one award for bravery or record number of arrests or case clear up statistics, just what appears to be the typical modern career path of modern senior Police.
The whole Police structure today is IMHO, no longer fit for purpose. Much can be laid at successive Govts. feet with continual cut backs but a lot can be laid at the feet of Senior Police leaders who have given in to politically correct pressures, going back probably as far as the old "institutional racist" accusations, when they should have insisted that the police MUST uphold/enforced the law of our land irrespective of colour, race or creed, rather than treat certain ethnicities/religions with kid gloves"
Calm, cool, think of the English countryside in Spring. Bluebells, and things.

I had to impose an 'anger-management' course on myself when dealing with Tanzanian engineers and their 'solutions'; we're only a few years beyond that, and we haven't embraced Change yet, have we?
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Not according to the IPCC report which is the definitive account of the event. I'm sure you know differently though if she makes you angry enough to call her an 'odious creature'. Maybe you should have stepped forward to provide your evidence to the commission; I'm sure they would have found it helpful.

A bit similar to your hatred of the officer under discussion
I don't hate the officer under discussion. I just think proven cowards shouldn't have leadership positions in the police or armed forces and he should have resigned last year after the attack.
 
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A bit like when it kicks off in the Sgts’ Mess and the CO is in. “We’ve got this in hand Sir, best you go home”
What I got from from the OS outside a NAAFI riot was "I'm going in to sort this and if I get thrown out then it's your turn sir."
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
If only everyone was as cool and level headed as you after you had just witnessed someone stabbed to death.
It seems a Spanish chap at London Bridge was prescient enough to intervene using his skateboard, he died but HM gave his mum the George Cross today.Must be one of those internet Internet hard men!
 
It seems a Spanish chap at London Bridge was prescient enough to intervene using his skateboard, he died but HM gave his mum the George Cross today.Must be one of those internet Internet hard men!
He represented everyone did he?
 
What I got from from the OS outside a NAAFI riot was "I'm going in to sort this and if I get thrown out then it's your turn sir."
Bollocks to that! Always send the subby in first! :smile:
 
But he wouldn’t have been much use as a strategic leader if he had died would he?

There’s something seriously wrong if a stategic leader has to go into harms way as a tactical responder in order to be credible. There’s something wrong with both the leadership and followership culture if a strategic leader has to get stuck in asna repsonder.
I have many problems with his actions in this. Some of that is about doing nothing when a brother is in mortal danger; some of that is about his lack of what used to be taught at RMAS as officership - command, example, responsibility; he didn't take command, he didn't show a good example and he didn't take responsibility. But in a way that pales when I read his excuses.

He said: "I could see PC Palmer moving backwards and him going down...​
"The thing that still shakes me about the attack is that it was 80-plus seconds in total. It didn't feel like that, it felt an awfully long time."​
Almost like he was watching telly, in all this his estimate led him to

"That's when I thought: 'I have got to start putting everything we need in place. We have got no protective equipment, no radio, I have got two colleagues with me who are quite distressed,' so we moved out."​
This sounds like prevarication to me, defecting from the actual incident and busying himself with something that make feel he's doing something. How does distressed compare to being attacked by a nutter wielding two big FO knives? There is also shifting the problem from what is he going to do to it being a collective responsibility of everyone with him. He was the senior officer and should have taken command. As someone else has suggested he should have gone out and tried to calm it down, warn others around then put himself between civis and the threat if that became necessary.

"If anyone had got out, the way this Masood was looking, anyone who got in his way would have been a target."​
This is awful, everyone out there can get hurt but not me, i'm alright jack. At that point did he forget that he was a copper.

The armed forces and the police are unique in that we know that when we sign on we have given up certain rights that everyone else takes for granted. Certainly for the armed forces that includes, if necessary, being called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect our people and our nation - I am pretty sure tis fundamental to the role of the police. It's a part of the job and if one of the most senior officers in the police doesn't understand that at the most basic they are there to put themselves between the people and danger then the system has allowed the wrong people to get to the top.

Cressida Dick needs to grip this. I think her silence is rather poor and I suspect the damage done to police morale at a time when it is already pretty low is going to be difficult to repair.
 
One of the police officers who today received the George Cross today thanked a couple who stopped to help him. Posted just to make the point that there are decent people out there who are doing the right thing even when situations are very tough.

'As Mr Guenigault (the George Cross recipient) lay on the floor with his injuries, a couple walking by ran to help him.

Ellen Gauntlett and Justin Jones came to his aid after he was stabbed, and stayed with him the whole night.

Mr Guenigault admitted he can’t thank them enough for what they did, saying: “After I had gone to the floor, I was just laying on the floor still conscious and I saw Justin and Ellen come over to me. I told Justin straight away he needs to put his knee on my back to stop any bleeding and told Ellen to call the police.

“They stayed with me there even when gunshots were going off. They took me to hospital and stayed with me in hospital, until they knew I was going to get through it.

“I can’t thank them enough for what they did – to stay there and keep me talking and awake.

“It just shows you don’t have to be a police officer to do something amazing as well.”
 

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