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What is Leadership

You'll have to humour me here. Are you concerned with me using language that implies that Police are anything other than civillians. If so, point taken, I will amend my post until it distinguishes between CIVPOL and the military and CIVPOL and CIVPOP. Otherwise I am unaware of CIVPOL casualties during the "bridge phase" of the incident, the first and only CIVPOL casualty being PC Palmer.

My issue was that the post I orginally reacted to seemed to suggest that Mackey could have done something for the CIVPOP casualties on the bridge. To me that was unproductive never mind unfair.
Yes, that's my only point.
There has been an increasing movement, possibly down to something as innocent as slang within the job, that has led certain elements within the Police to disavow themselves from the rest of society (mop.)

This distancing is to my mind counterproductive and alienates those very people who the Police are there to protect.

Even were the UK under martial law, any police constables assisting the armed forces in maintaining law and order would still be civilians, albeit with some additional legal power behind them.
 
You would be defending no one, PC Palmer got two stab wounds, it is highly unlikely anyone could have saved him.

Agreed, in hindsight we know that PC Palmer was stabbed specifically in places his body armour wasn't protecting him and I believe he took catastrophic injury to the armpit and as I'm sure you're aware direct pressure without a clotting agent such as HemCom you would bleed out within a short period of time.

Point is he didn't know the extent of PC Palmers injuries. What if it was a wound that could of kept him alive for a few minutes with direct pressure for the first responders to get to the scene. He didn't know but left to save his skin.

Just to clarify its alright when people are getting filled in, just to stand by and do **** all?

You aren't clarifying anything. No, you were talking about squaddies fighting each other which they do. Yes, things can go wrong and people get seriously hurt and if it looked like it was getting out of hand then yes you should definitely try to de-escalate the situation. You are making a strawman though aren't you. They aren't the same at all.

Soldiers are generally on duty during work time, let me assure you, most of them do not drive around with PPE or anything other than a car pass during heightened alert states.

If they are on duty where were they going in their cars? If it is home for lunch and the alert state is heightened then having some kit on them is prudent. I really can't see your argument, if your blokes don't carry kit useful in an incident teach them to. You are a leader after all.

I love the way you dismiss life changing injuries and occasional deaths as "a bit enthusiastic". I'd have thought the league of internet hardmen would piling in all over the country.

Again, blokes fighting amongst each other after a few beers isn't the same as a terrorist attack. Yes, it is bad news if somebody gets more hurt than their pride but again this isn't the same is it? It is like you are being purposely obtuse?

The attacker did something in a very short period of time, a bloke in his late 50s who probably hasnt walked the beat in years reacted incorrectly. I should imagine most people on here have never ever been in that situation.

I completely agree with you. Most people wouldn't have been in that position, that doesn't detract from his cowardly actions.

If he has now found that he is wanting and isn't fit for the role as a senior leader he should step down and return his Knighthood.

(I'm aware he is no longer the incumbent of that position)
 
Deputy Commissioner Sir Craig Thomas Mackey, QPM (born 26 August 1962) is the current Deputy Commissioner of London's Metropolitan Police Service.

Mackey joined Wiltshire Constabulary in 1984.
In 2001, he transferred to Gloucestershire Constabulary to become its Assistant Chief Constable - he later went on to be its Deputy Chief Constable.
In September 2007, Mackey joined Cumbria Constabulary as its Chief Constable, a post he remained in until his appointment as the Metropolitan Police Deputy Commissioner in 2012. Mackey served as the Acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police between 22 February and 10 April 2017.

Craig Mackey - Wikipedia

220px-Keith_Palmer%27s_funeral_%28007%29_%28cropped%29.jpg


An assiduous climber of the greasy pole, those decorations are purely, "decorative".
 
Ive been on foot patrol with the infantry in Afghanistan, I was Cpl, there was a SSgt and Acting DE Captain with me (All RLC). Although we didnt have any incidents the infantry NCOs were in charge.
Quite rightly, too.
 
So Cressida walking around London in her PPE is a mirage, why wasn't his in his vehicle or does he adhere to different standards. B H-H was not above arresting people and being our on the streets when he was Commissioner in his PPE, same as he did on Merseyside. So again why wasn't his PPE in the car oris he medically eempt from having it with him. He'd soon discipline a PC fo rnothaving it. At the end of the day he is a police officer.
Why was she walking around you balloonhead? If my CO is on the ranges he'll wear a helmet. If he isn't, he doesn't.
You are desperately clutching at straws in an effort to have a go at him.
 
If some of the internet hardmen were there, they doubtlessly would have taken over and save the day.

What is all this "internet hardman" stuff? While getting stuck in was an option for him - as you say, that may not have been the right choice for a bloke of his age and the circumstances he found himself thrust into with nothing more than a set of car keys to hand. On the other hand, he could have chosen to intervene, improvising whatever protection and/or weaponry he could with whatever he found at hand. His choice, and it's a matter of history now.

I still think it a reasonable expectation of the Met's 2IC to have at the very least, got himself to a place of relative safety, debussed and helped his lads out with policing the immediate aftermath.

"What can I do to help, lads?"

"Thanks for the offer Sir, we've got our hands full here. Looks like he's driven into pedestrians on the bridge. Would you mind taking that?"

"On it".
 
I recall many years ago as a baby plod I was in the reporting shift, just done parade, duty allocations and daily crime reports when a 10/9 shout went out. 10/9 being officer needs assistance.

The outgoing shift Sgt had buggered off leaving 2 of his lads out there covering a suspected burglary at a commercial premises in the town centre. AND HE HAD NOT TOLD ANYONE. The officer covering the rear of the premises whilst waiting for the keyholder got a severe pasting as the scrotes exited the building and he ended up in hospital overnight with suspected concussion.

The Sgt in question had phuqed his chances of Inspector in the future, was off many xmas card lists and was only spoken to in respect of anything to do with work. They ended up moving him but, in a county force it just follows you.
 
What is all this "internet hardman" stuff? While getting stuck in was an option for him - as you say, that may not have been the right choice for a bloke of his age and the circumstances he found himself thrust into with nothing more than a set of car keys to hand. On the other hand, he could have chosen to intervene, improvising whatever protection and/or weaponry he could with whatever he found at hand. His choice, and it's a matter of history now.

I still think it a reasonable expectation of the Met's 2IC to have at the very least, got himself to a place of relative safety, debussed and helped his lads out with policing the immediate aftermath.

"What can I do to help, lads?"

"Thanks for the offer Sir, we've got our hands full here. Looks like he's driven into pedestrians on the bridge. Would you mind taking that?"

"On it".

If only everyone was as cool and level headed as you after you had just witnessed someone stabbed to death.
 
Agreed, in hindsight we know that PC Palmer was stabbed specifically in places his body armour wasn't protecting him and I believe he took catastrophic injury to the armpit and as I'm sure you're aware direct pressure without a clotting agent such as HemCom you would bleed out within a short period of time.

Point is he didn't know the extent of PC Palmers injuries. What if it was a wound that could of kept him alive for a few minutes with direct pressure for the first responders to get to the scene. He didn't know but left to save his skin.

You aren't clarifying anything. No, you were talking about squaddies fighting each other which they do. Yes, things can go wrong and people get seriously hurt and if it looked like it was getting out of hand then yes you should definitely try to de-escalate the situation. You are making a strawman though aren't you. They aren't the same at all.

If they are on duty where were they going in their cars? If it is home for lunch and the alert state is heightened then having some kit on them is prudent. I really can't see your argument, if your blokes don't carry kit useful in an incident teach them to. You are a leader after all.

Again, blokes fighting amongst each other after a few beers isn't the same as a terrorist attack. Yes, it is bad news if somebody gets more hurt than their pride but again this isn't the same is it? It is like you are being purposely obtuse?


I completely agree with you. Most people wouldn't have been in that position, that doesn't detract from his cowardly actions.

If he has now found that he is wanting and isn't fit for the role as a senior leader he should step down and return his Knighthood.

(I'm aware he is no longer the incumbent of that position)

My bold, thats right with hindsight we all know what should have been done...

Do scroll back and read the comments about squaddies helping each other out, I must have not read them correctly because I didnt see anyone say say squaddies would only help each other out if a blade was involved.
Clearly squaddies dont always help each other out do they? (But that fine apparently because they rarely get stabbed)

Have you served in the army? When the flying **** have officers or anyone else normally driven around with PPE when they are on duty outside of NI? For my ROO/ROS duty I wear barrack dress not body armour and a helmet. Are you suggesting I should tell my lads to carry their SA80s in their car when there is a heighten terrorist threat?

Most people probably wouldnt have turned into Jean-Claude Camille François Van Varenberg and started filling in the knifeman either. Some people would have shit their pants, some would freeze, duck and hide, or do something really stupid.

What exactly has he been found wanting for? A 56 year man doesnt immediately react correctly to a shit situation.
 
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