What is Leadership

Fair dos..point taken. Have you seen my earlier comment wrt a bright red permanent marker?
Theres also some study into an armed person v a knifeman and needing at least 20 feet to defend himself...cannot remember the details...someone (other than I) will have to google if they require clarification.
Tueller drill. Anything less than 20ft and the knifeman has the advantage.
 
As I understand it, the off duty police officers who got involved and had no ppe. Not even a skateboard.
The BBC article can be used to attempt prove the view that the Commissioner attempting to help would have ended badly. However, the actions of the four men show that there are people willing to help just because it was right, or because in Mr Echeverria's case, because helping was an instinct.
And no, we're not all built that way. Hence the George Crosses and QGM.
All four trying to prevent the attack strongly undermines Mr Mackey's, case that he could not have tried.
What are the facts, we know he saw Masood stab PC Palmer, it is safe to assume that he saw the second PC tackle and then Masood shot. In his statement he said that he got out of the car after the incident and was told that it was under control. We don’t know distances, or who else was in the car, or realistic timescales. We do know that the place was swarming with police a few seconds after. Everything else is conjecture.
 
What are the facts, we know he saw Masood stab PC Palmer, it is safe to assume that he saw the second PC tackle and then Masood shot. In his statement he said that he got out of the car after the incident and was told that it was under control. We don’t know distances, or who else was in the car, or realistic timescales. We do know that the place was swarming with police a few seconds after. Everything else is conjecture.
Mackey saw the whole of the parliament attack including the arrival of the attacker at the scene.

"Clearly the way that the male came in and the purposeful way he came, he was clearly a threat.”

(From the Guardian) 'Mackey said he saw Palmer fall down as Masood pursued and stabbed him. “One of the PCs, quite rightfully, said: ‘Get out, make safe, go, shut the door,’ which he did, and it was the right thing to do."

I agree with you that things happened quickly. However, Mr Mackey had time to analyse whether he felt it wise to help so he had thinking and reaction time, arguably. Albeit that in a serious incident you can do this in seconds.

Apologies BTW for keeping on about this subject. I get that it's bloody annoying.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
To 'don't run, it panics the troops' should be added 'and frightens the horses'.
John Frost described it to the cast of 'A Bridge Too Far' as showing contempt for enemy fire and told Anthony Hopkins to slow down when he was moving about.
 
Mackey saw the whole of the parliament attack including the arrival of the attacker at the scene.

"Clearly the way that the male came in and the purposeful way he came, he was clearly a threat.”

(From the Guardian) 'Mackey said he saw Palmer fall down as Masood pursued and stabbed him. “One of the PCs, quite rightfully, said: ‘Get out, make safe, go, shut the door,’ which he did, and it was the right thing to do."

I agree with you that things happened quickly. However, Mr Mackey had time to analyse whether he felt it wise to help so he had thinking and reaction time, arguably. Albeit that in a serious incident you can do this in seconds.

Apologies BTW for keeping on about this subject. I get that it's bloody annoying.
'Make Safe !'
What exactly did the accompanying PC mean by that bit ?
That is a well recognised command in the military, wonder if it is the same in the Police.
 
Seems he has decided to call it a day a retire, looks like he is leave the Police Service in December, again you would have thought that he would have done that a year ago

Obviously thought that he could ride the blitz of publicity once the truth was out

Archie
 
Seems he has decided to call it a day a retire, looks like he is leave the Police Service in December
I think you’ll find he was always due to retire in December. If that is the case, dressing up his departure as somehow being related to the incident is massively disingenuous.

Irrespective of one’s view of whether he is a coward or not, his position is clearly untenable. He cannot provide the strategic leadership which he is appointed to do. The time for him to clear his desk is today.

And while he’s at it, the other senior leadership around him, particularly Dick, should consider their positions.

Epic failure of senior leadership.
 
I think you’ll find he was always due to retire in December. If that is the case, dressing up his departure as somehow being related to the incident is massively disingenuous.
His retirement was announced in July this year. Westminster was in 2017.

Met's Deputy Commissioner announces his retirement after more than 34 years' service

Home Secretary Sajid Javid said: “Sir Craig has been a committed leader within the Metropolitan Police during one of the most testing times in London’s history.

“He displayed fortitude and leadership as Acting Commissioner during the 2017 Westminster attack and I want to personally thank him for his service.
 
Ah, she dodges responsibility as she did not actually take up her appointment until the following day
It’s got nothing to do with responsibility for the events in the day and everything to do with the strategic management since.

As @Sonic67 has pointed out, Mackey’s retirement was announced after the incident but before the inquest. There’s a distinct odour of rodent to this. Politically correct leadership buries bad news...
 
It’s got nothing to do with responsibility for the events in the day and everything to do with the strategic management since.

As @Sonic67 has pointed out, Mackey’s retirement was announced after the incident but before the inquest. There’s a distinct odour of rodent to this. Politically correct leadership buries bad news...

No 'since' about it really that odious creature has been dodging responsibility since that poor Brazilian was offed by the Met and she will continue to get away with it until she is elevated to the Lords.

You may also recall the furore at the start of the inquest process when PC Palmer's family could not get Legal Aid but the Met and it's 'Leaders' were all lead in by very expensive QCs paid for out of public funds.

I don't disagree with your point though
 
Fair dos..point taken. Have you seen my earlier comment wrt a bright red permanent marker?
Theres also some study into an armed person v a knifeman and needing at least 20 feet to defend himself...cannot remember the details...someone (other than I) will have to google if they require clarification.

Originates with Sgt Dennis Tueller Of the Salt Lake City Police Dept in the early '80's. Noting that many of his oficers were taking a gun to a knife fight and losing.He did some practical tests on how far a motivated and reasonably fit individual could move in the time it took to unholster, aim and discharge a service issue pistol.

It was spread most effectively by the slightly bonkers training video "Surviving Edged Weapons" which had Guru Dan Inosanto and Leo Gaje starring as villains....

A summary of recent thought on the subject here:

What is Your Safe Distance to Engage the Threat: The 21-Foot Rule - USA Carry
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
No 'since' about it really that odious creature has been dodging responsibility since that poor Brazilian was offed by the Met and she will continue to get away with it until she is elevated to the Lords.
Given that she didn't make a mistake and made all the right decisions considering the information she had at the time, can you explain why she should take responsibility?

What is your issue with her? You seem to have a wierdly deep hatred of someone you can't have encountered professionally.
 
Soldiers stand by and watch other soldiers get beat to **** in squaddie bars up and down the country. Unless this site has never ever been drinking in Aldershot, Colchester or Catterick, I'd suggest we all know that.




Come down a garrision town on a Friday night, you'll have plenty of opportunities to stop squaddies get leathered (normally by other squaddies).
I spent 3 years in Colchester and 2 in Osnabrucke.
Mostly when soldiers fight it is when drunk and for fun, in that case where no serious damage was likely I left them to their fun. Contrary to what we are constantly being told drunks can't fight too well. This is why many continental football thugs drink after the fight, not before.
My experience of British soldiers is that if properly led they are capable of incredible courage and don't even talk about it afterwards, they can even be embarrassed. Perhaps 40 RA was a far better mob than anything you've seen.
This is a completely different case. he failed.
 
Given that she didn't make a mistake and made all the right decisions considering the information she had at the time, can you explain why she should take responsibility?
Because of the consequences of her decision?

I’m inclined to hold back from making a judgement on that one too. I think both made decisions based on the facts before them and the protocols in place. Both made the wrong decision.

I don’t have a problem with senior commanders making wrong decisions. It’s totallt unrealistic to expect people to get this kind of instantaneous decision right all of the time. Good decision making isn’t always right decision making. Most of the critics who shape oppinion have never had to make decisions much beyond what colour socks to wear.

IMHO the vacuum between the Westminster attacks and the inquest are a far bigger indicator of poor strategic decision making. Mackey’s untenable position must have been obvious straight away.
 
You can understand his actions as he wasn't armed. I know young Palmer wasn't armed either but he was just a Constable. The guy should be thoroughly ashamed of himself. :cool:
 

Similar threads


Latest Threads

Top