What is Leadership

You really are becoming a bore, the army are not on the streets maintaining the law the police are and must be equipped to do so from Cressida downwards if they are in uniform or covert
He's not on the streets either is he? Hes a desk jockey, Cressida Dick probably only put on her PPE when she is on the street and wants a photo op.
 
I did say earlier in the thread, it's not a dick waving contest.

But I have seen a bit and done a bit in my time, and I think that what the A/Commissioner did and said was wrong.

If people want to argue with me about it, they are welcome to. But on this issue, I do actually know a little bit about what I am talking about.

There are a few cutting about here who know who I am, and roughly what I have done in my life. I don't make up stuff to impress the internet, and there's a lot I don't talk about (not because of the Official Secrets Act, but because a lot of what I have seen isn't funny and is quite tragic).

I just don't get why people sometimes find it neccessary to argue with an apparently reasonable chap, pointing out simple truths.
Well I for one am not fooled. I think you are a walt and that you resent the fact that the only action you have ever been near to has been as a direct result of you being in the 'Thriller' aisle of the library where you work.

So there.
 
He failed as a member of the human race in someone else's desperate last minutes of life, and did nothing.
Whatever occupation you are in, as a human being you should not ignore or walk away from someone in life-threatening danger.
Fortunately he has to live with that and we do not.

But:-

At the time he was Acting Commissioner, callsign Metro One with a full CP team around him 24/7, a fully armoured motor and a number of telephonic and digital devices, encrypted and otherwise within said vehicle.
Also main channel radio direct to MP and any other UK force as selected.
The position occupied by him then (temporarily) needs him to speak securely to all sorts of people to authorise all sorts of operations.
His bollocks about not having a radio or PPE is just that.
Bollocks.
He slunk away, said fcuk all and I am sure many of us now civvies never even knew he was there on the day until now.
Burying the truth is a very kind way of saying he is a no-bottle no-mark failure
As I’ve said before, I’m not going to pass judgement on Mackey as a man, not least because I have no idea how I would have reacted in similar circumstance. But also because I can see good counter arguments that getting clear was the right thing to do.

I think his actions after the event are reprehensible; he was only found out because he was called as a witness at the inquest.

IMHO it calls into question the competence and leadership qualities of the Met’s entire senior leadership team who seem to have been caught unawares of the likely consequences of this coming out unmanaged through independent questioning. It was always going to become public....

If one takes the view that Mackey was a coward, then surely that should have been obvious to the senior leadership team. He should have been encouraged to go.

If he did the right thing, followed protocol etc etc it should have been made clear publicly before the inquest.

The inaction of the Commissioner and the senior team either protected Mackey or hung him out to dry. As a result they have seriously damaged the credibility of all senior ranking officers.
 
No, he has eaten it.
Just read on the Torygraph, said guilty acting Commissioner has chucked his ticket in and resigned.
Probably the thought of everyone getting up and leaving the canteen, in every place he entered was too much for his delicate soul. (If he still has one)
I hope to bump into him one day.
Nah, he's just retiring in 6 or so weeks. On a massive pension.
 
Not really a session drink though is it? I mean you wouldn't start on the Slivo at 10am when you're supposed to be monitoring the de-mining effort would you?
10 am? Having observed the quality of said demining efforts in those days I suspect you were the only one present who wasn't already fortified with a rakija or two...
 
There is a theory that says that most of the scandal travels at ground level. If you're standing up, you get it in the legs, if you're on the ground , you can get it anywhere. I suspect that a proximity fuse would make a nonsense of this but the Iraqi projectiles had a wonderful habit of burrowing into the sand before producing a plume of sand straight from central casting. I leave it to those better qualified to pronounce on shrapnel evasion best practice but, regarding your final point, it's always improving to discover what the various component parts of the British Army regard as effective fire.
Not true on the fragmentation theory I think. The training (and my own observations) of frag (not shrapnel, please*) is that in a ground burst it travels upwards and outwards in a cone.

* shrapnel weapons are a particular type of anti-personnel round where pre-formed shot is ejected out of the (nose of the) projectile. Air burst if possible. Most fragments from artillery/mortars are from the bursting of the case, usually (though not always) on impact, or, as you describe, 'short delay' to allow penetration of overhead cover before detonation.

Adopting a low profile is probably the best idea during an artillery attack, but the idea of "don't run, it panics the troops" used to be strongly instilled during officer training. Leading by example and all that...
 
Not true on the fragmentation theory I think. The training (and my own observations) of frag (not shrapnel, please*) is that in a ground burst it travels upwards and outwards in a cone.

* shrapnel weapons are a particular type of anti-personnel round where pre-formed shot is ejected out of the (nose of the) projectile. Air burst if possible. Most fragments from artillery/mortars are from the bursting of the case, usually (though not always) on impact, or, as you describe, 'short delay' to allow penetration of overhead cover before detonation.

Adopting a low profile is probably the best idea during an artillery attack, but the idea of "don't run, it panics the troops" used to be strongly instilled during officer training. Leading by example and all that...
Clearly another walt.
Who do you think you are....Dingerr??
 
Avoiding the obvious comparisons I'm merely someone who has spent a lot of time on 'outside areas' tidying up, usually after other people have finished fighting :)

Nah....

Not having it. You emptied the bins outside of a scout hut once after emotions grew high over cookery badge misappropriation.
 
...I've witness soldiers freezing or doing the wrong actions when put under stressful situation, and I certainly seen people flapping like ****...
Fair enough. So the question is, given the role of this man in the Met, and given the role of the Met in terms of the security of London, could either of these terms be applied to him? In his circumstances as one of the leaders of an organisation whose core raison d'etre is to be able to deal with incidents like this, after a considerable period of elevated threat and at a very high profile location?

Personally I'd say that your words could well be applied to him.

To carry on from the 'other' Bob's ideas, he might have shown a bit more strategic leadership if he'd have come back to the Batcave and said something like "Right then, I've just found myself in the middle of a right shïtstorm and unable to do anything about it. What do we need to do to stop this happening again? Also, we have to review our defence measures at high profile fixed targets in the light of such attacks"

But his credibility in doing so would have been quite significantly improved if first he'd have done something in response to an 'officer needing assistance', which speaks to him 'freezing, doing the wrong actions or flapping like ****' given his position in the force responsible for dealing with such incidents.
 
Feck sake...nobody's biting...

I'm going to bed.

Tw@t!!! ;)
 
But his credibility in doing so would have been quite significantly improved if first he'd have done something in response to an 'officer needing assistance', which speaks to him 'freezing, doing the wrong actions or flapping like ****' given his position in the force responsible for dealing with such incidents.
But he wouldn’t have been much use as a strategic leader if he had died would he?

There’s something seriously wrong if a stategic leader has to go into harms way as a tactical responder in order to be credible. There’s something wrong with both the leadership and followership culture if a strategic leader has to get stuck in asna repsonder.
 
Someone said earlier that he should always have his PPE (This may well be true but I cant find it on the net),
It is true.

I'm starting to regret my level of civility to you. You clearly aren't actually willing to listen.
 
But he wouldn’t have been much use as a strategic leader if he had died would he?

There’s something seriously wrong if a stategic leader has to go into harms way as a tactical responder in order to be credible. There’s something wrong with both the leadership and followership culture if a strategic leader has to get stuck in asna repsonder.
I sympathise with your logic, but his credibility is evidently now non-existent, given the responses from serving and ex-plod on here.

I think that, if he'd been sat in fraggle rock, and had immediately rushed over and got stuck in, all of the intermediate CoC would have - understandably- been pïssed off with a VSO getting in the way.

Also, if he'd found himself at the periphery of a demonstration, perhaps a quick chat with the incident commander before backing off might had been appropriate.

But it was neither of these scenarios. He found himself at the pointy bit of the sharp end. With one of his own in trouble, in an incident that wasn't going to wait for him to move 5-10 mins back to the incident room. Where presumably someone already qualified to do so was already stagging on. He wasn't ever going to add any immediate 'strategic' direction to this particular incident. He could only contribute on an immediate tactical level. Or do nothing.

If his CP sat on him and stopped him from wading in, fair play, but then I feel it behooved him more to then, with all due humility, look at lessons learned
 
Not true on the fragmentation theory I think. The training (and my own observations) of frag (not shrapnel, please*) is that in a ground burst it travels upwards and outwards in a cone.

* shrapnel weapons are a particular type of anti-personnel round where pre-formed shot is ejected out of the (nose of the) projectile. Air burst if possible. Most fragments from artillery/mortars are from the bursting of the case, usually (though not always) on impact, or, as you describe, 'short delay' to allow penetration of overhead cover before detonation.

Adopting a low profile is probably the best idea during an artillery attack, but the idea of "don't run, it panics the troops" used to be strongly instilled during officer training. Leading by example and all that...
To 'don't run, it panics the troops' should be added 'and frightens the horses'.
 
Skateboard hero to receive bravery award

The four persons referred to in this article are really the answer to the question about whether the Commissioner could have done anything.

Mr Echeverria's Dad is quoted as saying:

"Since Ignacio's death we have lived a year of intense emotions.

"There has been pain and love and I have reflected on the meaning of duty and commitment.

"I have been compelled to think about what really matters and what is worth taking risks and fighting for; life, freedom, dignity, for oneself and for others."

He told the BBC that Ignacio had said he would've intervened if he had been passing the Westminster Bridge attack which happened three months earlier.

"Ignacio told us that if he had of been skateboarding past on that occasion then the police officer would have survived, because he would have tried to help.

"Later, during the attack at London Bridge, he demonstrated this through his actions.
 
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Skateboard hero to receive bravery award

The four persons referred to in this article are really the answer to the question about whether the Commissioner could have done anything.

Mr Echeverria's Dad is quoted as saying:

"Since Ignacio's death we have lived a year of intense emotions.

"There has been pain and love and I have reflected on the meaning of duty and commitment.

"I have been compelled to think about what really matters and what is worth taking risks and fighting for; life, freedom, dignity, for oneself and for others."

He told the BBC that Ignacio had said he would've intervened if he had been passing the Westminster Bridge attack which happened three months earlier.

"Ignacio told us that if he had of been skateboarding past on that occasion then the police officer would have survived, because he would have tried to help.

"Later, during the attack at London Bridge, he demonstrated this through his actions.
All police commissioners to carry skateboards in their vehicles from now on?
 
All police commissioners to carry skateboards in their vehicles from now on?
As I understand it, the off duty police officer who got involved (see article) had no ppe.
The BBC article can be used to attempt prove the view that the Commissioner getting involved would have ended badly. The actions of the four men also show that there are people willing to help because it is right, or because in Mr Echeverria's case, because helping was an instinct.
And no, we're not all built that way. Hence the George Crosses and QGM.
All four trying to prevent the attacks undermines Mr Mackey's case that he could/should not have tried.
 
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