What is China up to in Kashmir?

#2
Maybe 40 years ago the National Geographic Magazine printed a map which showed the land which China claimed as their areas of Influence.
Most of Asia, Vietnam being the state which was not included.
I understand that in times gone by, Rulers where not interested in land but in Population.
One of, if not the First Chinese Emperor was somewhat unsure of his claim to the throne. He then sent Emissary's and his Great Fleet out to secure the Fealty/Loyalty of all known surrounding Nations.
By securing "Gifts" from Foreign Rulers he 'Claimed' their nation as "Subjects" and used this to Justify his Right to the Middle Kingdom.
China is now resurrecting these ancient Claims to establish Land Rights today.
China has as history of Massive internal Revolutions.
These led to the losing folk establishing large populations all over the Orient.
The Chinese of Thailand are a different 'Tribe' from say Taiwan, but China claims all as Descendants.
Population Then and Land now.
The US was planning to surround China, now China is surrounding its Ally India.
The Himalayas, Tibet, Gilgit-Baltistan and bases in Sri Lanka.
All part of what we once called the Great Game.

john
 
#4
China is now resurrecting these ancient Claims to establish Land Rights today.
Seems like a good idea. We should do that, and claim back the whole empire - and maybe the original 13 states of the USA!

However on a serious note, if Islamabad have invited the Chinese in, then they've made a big mistake, as they are likely to increase their power, not only in Kashmir, but in the rest of Pakistan. Communist ideals spread and the Islamic state falls...er... hang on - forget what I just said, Chinese in Kashmir sounds like a great idea!

Perhaps they could take over Afghan too!
 
#5
What are Chinese troops doing in Kashmir? | Randeep Ramesh | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Hmm. Wonder what India is going to do to stop the Chinese surrounding it? Also be interested to know what China's role was in the recently ended conflict in Sri Lanka.
The Indians are notoriously prickly about China's relations with Pakistan, particularly since the 1962 war went so badly for them. They seem to want to impose themselves as the local superpower but lack the ability, much to their frustration. Incidentally, the Economist carried an interview with Mao's former translator which shed some light on why the PLA didn't crush India completely when they had the chance.

The Hindu's reporting it as a storm in a teacup. I reckon Beijing's finding it as difficult to manage its relations with Pakistan and India as everyone else.
 
#6
R&R possibly?
 
#7
The Indians are notoriously prickly about China's relations with Pakistan, particularly since the 1962 war went so badly for them. They seem to want to impose themselves as the local superpower but lack the ability, much to their frustration. Incidentally, the Economist carried an interview with Mao's former translator which shed some light on why the PLA didn't crush India completely when they had the chance.



The Hindu's reporting it as a storm in a teacup. I reckon Beijing's finding it as difficult to manage its relations with Pakistan and India as everyone else.
Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to Wikipedia, the Indians had 10 - 12,000 troops involved in the war, the Chinese 80,000.

I understand that China could have inflicted more damage on the Indian forces involved, but the idea that they were in a position to "crush India completely" after this victory sounds rather far fetched.
 
#8
One of, if not the First Chinese Emperor was somewhat unsure of his claim to the throne. He then sent Emissary's and his Great Fleet out to secure the Fealty/Loyalty of all known surrounding Nations.
By securing "Gifts" from Foreign Rulers he 'Claimed' their nation as "Subjects" and used this to Justify his Right to the Middle Kingdom.
The Great Fleet sounds a bit like Zheng He who was Grand Admiral of the Yongle and Xuande reigns of the Ming Dynasty early 15th Century. The MO of his journeys is an interesting study in traditional Chinese diplomacy. Basically, he'd sail into port and dispense lavish gifts on the local ruler and elite to get them onside and - purely incidentally, of course - impress them with the strength and riches off their new friends.

What he wouldn't do would be get involved in any local dispute between neighbours; if there was a problem affecting all of them e.g. piracy then he'd gather a 'coalition of the willing' based around his fleet and set off to extirpate the pirate nest. He was also far from shy of making an example of anyone who attacked him. When troops from one of the Ceylonese kingdoms attacked his emissary, he landed a punitive column, torched their capital and took their king back to Beijing to apologise to the Emperor in person. Having made suitably humble reparations, the King was sent back home with a lavish gift of silver and porcelain and a burning (pun intended) memory of how it paid to be friends with the Ming.

By and large it was an extension of their land policy - promote stability and intertwine everyone's best interests so that the status quo suits them. Keep everyone more or less happy with how things are so that the chances of them wanting war are lessened. War interfered too much with trade and the Ming had too much they wanted to sell.
 
#9
I understand that China could have inflicted more damage on the Indian forces involved, but the idea that they were in a position to "crush India completely" after this victory sounds rather far fetched.
With the forces the PLA deployed they couldn't have. That was the point; they deliberately limited the scope of their war effort when they could have escalated it in the face of a weakened enemy and when they could have driven far further south than they did.

The official Indian MoD history puts as brave a face as possible and justifiably talks up the individual bravery and endurance of their men, but even they seem surprised that the Chinese stopped at their territorial claim.
 
#10
AndyPipkin said:
What is China up to in Kashmir?
Don't know. Don't care.

But if 'we' feel 'we' have the 'right' to meddle and interfere in places such as Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, then we should have the grace to concede others have the 'right' to meddle and interfere in other parts of the world too.
 
#11
A simple answer: mischief!
An even simpler answer: whatever they want! China is growing in power, wealth and influence. They are pragmatic to the point of being utterly ruthless, and no other nation will piss off the Chinese unless they absolutely have to.
 
#12
I think we need to send a Gunboat* up the Yangtze.

*My Grandfather went up the Yangtze on HMS Falcon
 
#13
I think we need to send a Gunboat* up the Yangtze.

*My Grandfather went up the Yangtze on HMS Falcon
Good idea, on you go.

Let us know how you get on, won't you?
 
#14
I think we need to send a Gunboat* up the Yangtze.

*My Grandfather went up the Yangtze on HMS Falcon
Unfortunately the PLAN is now considerably larger then the RN...so good luck, bring us back pressies...no IPOD's
 
#15
Lets not do the RN a disservice, it is still a vastly more capable bluewater navy than the PLAN. Mainly because of SSN but still lets not do our only world wide number 2 ranking down!
 
#16
Lets not do the RN a disservice, it is still a vastly more capable bluewater navy than the PLAN. Mainly because of SSN but still lets not do our only world wide number 2 ranking down!
Would its strength suffice to force passage in Chinese inshore waters? That was the proposition.
 
#17
The Chinese aren't that bad are they? Just a little misunderstood, they did good by the Olympics the other year.
 
#18
Maybe 40 years ago the National Geographic Magazine printed a map which showed the land which China claimed as their areas of Influence.
Most of Asia, Vietnam being the state which was not included.
I understand that in times gone by, Rulers where not interested in land but in Population.
One of, if not the First Chinese Emperor was somewhat unsure of his claim to the throne. He then sent Emissary's and his Great Fleet out to secure the Fealty/Loyalty of all known surrounding Nations.
By securing "Gifts" from Foreign Rulers he 'Claimed' their nation as "Subjects" and used this to Justify his Right to the Middle Kingdom.
China is now resurrecting these ancient Claims to establish Land Rights today.
China has as history of Massive internal Revolutions.
These led to the losing folk establishing large populations all over the Orient.
The Chinese of Thailand are a different 'Tribe' from say Taiwan, but China claims all as Descendants.
Population Then and Land now.
The US was planning to surround China, now China is surrounding its Ally India.
The Himalayas, Tibet, Gilgit-Baltistan and bases in Sri Lanka.
All part of what we once called the Great Game.

john
Maybe,just maybe lies the seeds to the Third World War.

The Indian Ocean and South China Sea will see a rise in tension as China asserts her growing power in the coming years.
 
#19
Lets not do the RN a disservice, it is still a vastly more capable bluewater navy than the PLAN. Mainly because of SSN but still lets not do our only world wide number 2 ranking down!
More capable?, yes....vastly?.....debatable, and shrinking...The Chinese have two thing's, resources and ambition.
They build ships/subs/ like crazy (They build 2 Type 054A frigate's a year and are still doing that for the next few year's, 15 more Yuan SSK boat's too). Work the shit out of them then almost straight away work on the next class, alway's improving.

They have almost the exact opposite problem to the RN. The RN start's out with a set number of ship's needed and that number shrink's, the PLAN seem's to be getting more of each class then was expected.
It was thought they stopped at 8 054A's, we now know they have 10, same with the O52C destroyer's....those frigate's are more heavily armed then an RN one too.... There are even report's they have indigenous aircraft carrier's under construction to go along with the "Varyag". The Yag seem's to be almost finished, money's on she goes to sea next year.

Anyway we'll have to see how the Type-095 SSN work's out in a few year's....I'm guessing mid to late LA class capability.
 
#20
More capable?, yes....vastly?.....debatable, and shrinking...The Chinese have two thing's, resources and ambition.
They build ships/subs/ like crazy (They build 2 Type 054A frigate's a year and are still doing that for the next few year's, 15 more Yuan SSK boat's too). Work the shit out of them then almost straight away work on the next class, alway's improving.

They have almost the exact opposite problem to the RN. The RN start's out with a set number of ship's needed and that number shrink's, the PLAN seem's to be getting more of each class then was expected.
It was thought they stopped at 8 054A's, we now know they have 10, same with the O52C destroyer's....those frigate's are more heavily armed then an RN one too.... There are even report's they have indigenous aircraft carrier's under construction to go along with the "Varyag". The Yag seem's to be almost finished, money's on she goes to sea next year.

Anyway we'll have to see how the Type-095 SSN work's out in a few year's....I'm guessing mid to late LA class capability.
Chinese built aircraft carriers with Sukhoi SU-27 are not far from being in service.
 

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