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What if Des Browne is not sacked.........

#1
On Monday Des Browne comes to the House to make a statement and answer questions about the debacle of the '15.'

In his handling of the hostage crisis he has made many errors and has misled the British people. He has failed to look after the interests of the captives, tried to blame the Navy for the selling of stories fiasco and failled to provide a single shred of leadership. The Navy has been humiliated around the world and our enemies now laugh at us.

And yet.... Blair will shortly stand down and Browne is one of Gordon's men. Gordon recently spoke very highly of Des in an effort to shore him up. The obvious thing to any right thinking person is that Des must go, he is not fit for purpose and this episode has been a disaster. If Blair decides for whatever shoddy reasons that Browne must stay, at least for the time being, what effect will this have on the men and women in the armed forces? How is Browne supposed to demonstrate leadership when he does not appear to have the confidence of anyone excepting his political masters? Do the Top Brass and executive have any respect for British servicemen?

Surely now is the time for the 1st and 2nd Sea Lords to come forward with the facts. They too are suffering a crisis of confidence from within the Navy.

I have a horrible feeling that Browne will still be in the job come Monday evening, if that is the case, the rot will have set in and the clock ticking on our best small army in the world.
 
#4
Of course Browne will neither resign or be sacked, He's a gordon man and a jock, what with the Scottish elections coming up that wouldn't look very good.

He neither cares or worries about the armed forces, his loyalties lie to himself and the labour party, my money is on the spineless git passing the buck to someone lower down the food chain.
 
#6
I agree, we should not be surprised that the poker-faced Jock is still in a position to fcuk the armed forces. Lions led by donkeys and Browne is shuffling around like Bottom out of A Midsummer's Night Dream. Sorry I came ove all cultured for minute, Tommy's not meant to read and all that sort of fing is he? Gas the 'suits' that's what I say. Sadly we are going to have to put up with a bit more ruddy politics over the next few weeks as Titanic deck chairs get reshuffled in the street of shame, god I hate the Bstards!
 
#7
wet_blobby said:
Of course Browne will neither resign or be sacked, He's a gordon man and a jock, what with the Scottish elections coming up that wouldn't look very good.

He neither cares or worries about the armed forces, his loyalties lie to himself and the labour party, my money is on the spineless git passing the buck to someone lower down the food chain.
Agreed.
Having said that, I'm not sure how much more pressure Bliar can withstand. It's obvious that the spin machine has been hoping that this story would go away before Monday but for once the press has had the stones to keep the pace. I think that in the interest of his 'legacy', should Monday be a bad day for Browne, Bliar will push him rather than let him resign in order to demonstrate some strength in his last days.
 
#8
radioactiveman said:
wet_blobby said:
Of course Browne will neither resign or be sacked, He's a gordon man and a jock, what with the Scottish elections coming up that wouldn't look very good.

He neither cares or worries about the armed forces, his loyalties lie to himself and the labour party, my money is on the spineless git passing the buck to someone lower down the food chain.
Agreed.
Having said that, I'm not sure how much more pressure Bliar can withstand. It's obvious that the spin machine has been hoping that this story would go away before Monday but for once the press has had the stones to keep the pace. I think that in the interest of his 'legacy', should Monday be a bad day for Browne, Bliar will push him rather than let him resign in order to demonstrate some strength in his last days.
I don't expect politicians to either understand or respect such a thing as honour, but the power is with Admiral Band and/or Vice Admiral Johns to fall on their swords and explain to the country exactly what happened. If they do not, in a grubby attempt to retain their own positions, then, the New Labour Top Brass will be seen in the same light as their political masters. I hope for once, the Tories can show us they are an effective opposition by insisting on an inquiry into the whole affair.

The truth might just give Blair the fitting legacy he deserves.
 
#10
A condensed early draft of Des Browne's speech, to be delivered on Monday:

I pay tribute to our troops risking their lives...sure the House shares my sorrow at the latest casualties (note to advisor, find out their names)....I accept full responsibility for this regrettable occurence....with hindsight I should have reversed the decision.......deeply regret what has happened.....it is not appropriate for me to resign as it will send out the wrong message and undermine morale.....there is an ongoing independent (suppress snigger) inquiry...any questions....no, this was nothing to do with Downing Street it was instigated by the Navy....I refer the honourable gentleman/lady to my previous answer.....everything in Iraq is going to plan.....etc

To be honest I suspect the Admirals are thinking "why the **** should I resign if that tw@t doesn't, it'll change nothing anyway". I can see their point.
 
#11
MrPVRd said:
A condensed early draft of Des Browne's speech, to be delivered on Monday:

I pay tribute to our troops risking their lives...sure the House shares my sorrow at the latest casualties (note to advisor, find out their names)....I accept full responsibility for this regrettable occurence....with hindsight I should have reversed the decision.......deeply regret what has happened.....it is not appropriate for me to resign as it will send out the wrong message and undermine morale.....there is an ongoing independent (suppress snigger) inquiry...any questions....no, this was nothing to do with Downing Street it was instigated by the Navy....I refer the honourable gentleman/lady to my previous answer.....everything in Iraq is going to plan.....etc

To be honest I suspect the Admirals are thinking "why the **** should I resign if that tw@t doesn't, it'll change nothing anyway". I can see their point.
Worryingly accurate I suspect Mr PVR'd. Look forward to the Sunday Papers splitting along party lines and calling for resignation / arguing for him to stay in office. Your point about the Admirals is right.

If only our political leaders would have the good grace to fall on their' sword in the manner it would appear they readily expect our military leaders to.

The only difference seems to be that members of the armed forces know when it is a suitable act to do, and do the decent thing. Members of our present government apppear not to know what a sword is, and have no idea of the dangers involved in its use and handling - in any sense of the words.
 
#13
He is the boss.

He teared up the rule book that the Navy has been run by for years to gain political bonus points, but because hes out of touch with his staff other people had to point out to him that it was a very bad decision.

He then attempts to LIE his way out of it by claiming it was someone elses idea despite it being known he would have had to sanction the decision.

He has also lowerd Joe Publics perception of Navy personnel to that of Jade Goody with a gun.

he will not be sacked or resign.

will this government ever stop lying to us or do they think were all stupid.
 
#14
Mr PRVd -
To be honest I suspect the Admirals are thinking "why the **** should I resign if that tw@t doesn't, it'll change nothing anyway". I can see their point.
I think that sums it all up. The "old" concepts of honour and duty have all but all gone. Dumping Browne will serve little. Any replacement will soon turn into the same sort of self-serving, self satisfied tw*t anyway.
Nominations for a replacement anyone? Right for the job now and likely to retain our support in 200 days time?
 
#15
OldRedCap said:
Mr PRVd -
To be honest I suspect the Admirals are thinking "why the **** should I resign if that tw@t doesn't, it'll change nothing anyway". I can see their point.
I think that sums it all up. The "old" concepts of honour and duty have all but all gone. Dumping Browne will serve little. Any replacement will soon turn into the same sort of self-serving, self satisfied tw*t anyway.
Nominations for a replacement anyone? Right for the job now and likely to retain our support in 200 days time?
If Mr PVR'd is right, and I have to say I do not share his opinion, then why should our servicemen continue to sacrifice themselves in Iraq? A continued lack of moral authority on offer by the politicos and the Top Brass has damaging long term effects, ie, people leave and those left behind for whatever reason become disheartened. Senior RN officers cannot afford to continue to behave like politicians, UK armed forces are heading for a crisis.
 
#16
In fairness to Browne, he did hold up his hand and take full personal responsibility for what has happened. The BBC carried it in detail, even though Browne bailed out of some interviews - possibly to confer with Blair? So, to that extent, he's behaved rather honourably.

It is quite possible - though we may never know - that Browne has already offered to resign. Although his generation of politicians find resignation an alien concept.

It may be useful to see what the Sunday papers have to say, and they could well dictate the mood of the Commons exchanges on Monday. Blair has tried to sidestep this, but he may well be called directly to account on Monday in the House.

Interesting . . .
 
#17
caubeen said:
In fairness to Browne, he did hold up his hand and take full personal responsibility for what has happened. The BBC carried it in detail, even though Browne bailed out of some interviews - possibly to confer with Blair? So, to that extent, he's behaved rather honourably.

It is quite possible - though we may never know - that Browne has already offered to resign. Although his generation of politicians find resignation an alien concept.

It may be useful to see what the Sunday papers have to say, and they could well dictate the mood of the Commons exchanges on Monday. Blair has tried to sidestep this, but he may well be called directly to account on Monday in the House.

Interesting . . .
No, he did not take "full personal responsibility". He used a form of words such that, if you are not overly legalistically minded like oh Blair or Browne, sound like that. However he made it clear that he was reluctantly taking responsibility although the "decision was the Navy's". Saying you are responsible is one thing, accepting the consequences, identifying the reasons why and preventing history repeating itself as farce and doing your job well are all quite different - quite different from Des Browne anyway!
 
#18
Cuddles said:
caubeen said:
In fairness to Browne, he did hold up his hand and take full personal responsibility for what has happened. The BBC carried it in detail, even though Browne bailed out of some interviews - possibly to confer with Blair? So, to that extent, he's behaved rather honourably.

It is quite possible - though we may never know - that Browne has already offered to resign. Although his generation of politicians find resignation an alien concept.

It may be useful to see what the Sunday papers have to say, and they could well dictate the mood of the Commons exchanges on Monday. Blair has tried to sidestep this, but he may well be called directly to account on Monday in the House.

Interesting . . .
No, he did not take "full personal responsibility". He used a form of words such that, if you are not overly legalistically minded like oh Blair or Browne, sound like that. However he made it clear that he was reluctantly taking responsibility although the "decision was the Navy's". Saying you are responsible is one thing, accepting the consequences, identifying the reasons why and preventing history repeating itself as farce and doing your job well are all quite different - quite different from Des Browne anyway!
By any normal, logical Booleian interpretation of his words - "the buck stops" etc - he has accepted full and complete responsibility.

Taking the consequences and ensuring no repetition are another matter; and, as I said, he may well already have offered to resign. Such an offer would have been a logical step further after accepting responsibility. Tho' perhaps not to his generation of career politicians. We can only speculate . . .

He will have to accept the consequences, whether he likes it or not; but it's unlikely we'll know more until Monday, when I'd quess the spotlight may be as much on Blair as Browne. Tomorrow's papers may be a revelation.
 
#19
MrPVRd said:
A condensed early draft of Des Browne's speech, to be delivered on Monday:

I pay tribute to our troops risking their lives...sure the House shares my sorrow at the latest casualties (note to advisor, find out their names)....I accept full responsibility for this regrettable occurence....with hindsight I should have reversed the decision.......deeply regret what has happened.....it is not appropriate for me to resign as it will send out the wrong message and undermine morale.....there is an ongoing independent (suppress snigger) inquiry...any questions....no, this was nothing to do with Downing Street it was instigated by the Navy....I refer the honourable gentleman/lady to my previous answer.....everything in Iraq is going to plan.....etc

To be honest I suspect the Admirals are thinking "why the **** should I resign if that tw@t doesn't, it'll change nothing anyway". I can see their point.
* my Bold
funny how they blame hindsight for any thing that goes wrong! But show no foresight when called to make a decision.

Grow a spine and show some intelect, and dont take us for fools either, you Liabour Cnut!! :x :x

Love to see the Job Description for his job :x :x
 
#20
If Mr PVR'd is right, and I have to say I do not share his opinion, then why should our servicemen continue to sacrifice themselves in Iraq? A continued lack of moral authority on offer by the politicos and the Top Brass has damaging long term effects, ie, people leave and those left behind for whatever reason become disheartened. Senior RN officers cannot afford to continue to behave like politicians, UK armed forces are heading for a crisis.
It's definitely not the way things should be and the rot comes from the very top. Carrington resigned over the Falklands and that seems a lot longer away than 25 years ago. No one has resigned over Iraq, intelligence failures, kit shortages, equipment failings etc and the supposed prime minister avoided the only debate on Iraq since the invasion! I asked myself the same question about sacrifices in Iraq and lack of moral authority back in 2004 and PVRd, hence the name!


If the admirals would achieve anything by resigning then they should, but I suspect their resignation statements and interviews would create a short-term controversy that would be countered by other flag officers in the Senior Service, briefed up by MoD on what to say. I believe that the media issue is important but that the issue of the incident itself is even more important. Will there be a board of inquiry into what happened and decisions made at all levels? Why did this happen again after a previous incident? If there is no BOI and a whitewash, then will such an incident happen again, only with loss of life?
 

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