What happens if the government loses a Brexit-related HoC vote?

No your chav gets a vote in the general election they can have a vote in the second chamber as representative of a particular part of the population. I realise this idea frightens people who think democracy is a convenient cover to ensure only the right type of people can get elected.
A fair point.
 
I don't think it's a case of her hanging on. It's much more a case of no one being stupid enough to want to take up the poisoned chalice that is the post of PM at the moment. Damned if the PM does and damned if the PM doesn't.

Yes. That's what I said. No-one else wants this crock and PMTM is rather gallantly taking one for the team.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
We won't agree on that point BUT, even if Brexit is a mistake, surely we need someone to at least try to make the best of it?
Couldn't agree more, but if we're doing what's best for the country. We could be looking at a government of national unity, without corbyn.
If you were looking at a how best to wreck the place scenario, you'd be hard pushed to improve on this one.
 
Couldn't agree more, but if we're doing what's best for the country. We could be looking at a government of national unity, without corbyn.
If you were looking at a how best to wreck the place scenario, you'd be hard pushed to improve on this one.
We could find out very soon.
To me, Dominic Grieve's statement about having sleepless nights is both him trying to seek leverage and also an early excuse along the lines of "We warned the government; they would not listen".
Time (on Wednesday I believe) to see if they are pro-EU/anti-Brexit enough to defeat the government and damn the consequences.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Yes I mean there's no point in democracy if you don't fix the result is there.
To use another posters analogy, buckling under the nazis because it's the easiest thing to do was wrong.

A majority vote based on wrong information, lies and deceit doesn't say much for democracy.


Nothing to do with democracy, it's what's good for the country. How many votes would Brexit have got if it had said. 'Vote Brexit, wreck the country , bring down the government. Make us less influential, less important, poorer economically, socially and diplomatically. A laughing stock to our neighbours and a joke as far as Trump and his carpetbaggers are concerned'.



If I've got it wrong tell me the upside.
 
We could find out very soon.
To me, Dominic Grieve's statement about having sleepless nights is both him trying to seek leverage and also an early excuse along the lines of "We warned the government; they would not listen".
Time (on Wednesday I believe) to see if they are pro-EU/anti-Brexit enough to defeat the government and damn the consequences.

It is on Wed.
 
Yes I mean there's no point in democracy if you don't fix the result is there.
The government of the U.K. is based on 'representative' democracy whereby a constituency votes for a representative who is then empowered to vote as their conscience dictates. They are NOT delegates to simply vote as their constituents tell them.

But with representative democracy, there's an issue with referenda, which is why we rarely have them. A referendum chooses Course A, but what if Parliament wants Course B. And parliament is made up of people chosen by people...all the more difficult in this specific case when one of the aims of Brexit was to 'give back power to Parliament'.
 
The government of the U.K. is based on 'representative' democracy whereby a constituency votes for a representative who is then empowered to vote as their conscience dictates. They are NOT delegates to simply vote as their constituents tell them.

But with representative democracy, there's an issue with referenda, which is why we rarely have them. A referendum chooses Course A, but what if Parliament wants Course B. And parliament is made up of people chosen by people...all the more difficult in this specific case when one of the aims of Brexit was to 'give back power to Parliament'.
its just a shame we havent taken back the powers yet and the remainers have jumped the gun to stop it!
 
The government of the U.K. is based on 'representative' democracy whereby a constituency votes for a representative who is then empowered to vote as their conscience dictates. They are NOT delegates to simply vote as their constituents tell them..

Well no actually

I voted for a Conservative who won, and I expect him to stick to the Conservative manifesto and follow the Conservative ethos

I did not vote to elect somebody on a Conservative ticket to do what ever they wanted in the HoP, if he wanted to do otherwise then he should have stood as an Independent (In which case he would have not got in)

Archie
 
this really is make or break time for Teresa May! she has to grow a pair and challenge Dominique Grieve to vote against the Govt on Wednesday and usher in the disaster that is Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott with the Communist party - my personal feeling is that enough Traitors will back down if they believe May actually means it because the very thought of the Dear Leader being allowed anywhere near the levers of power is far far worse than anything that could go wrong with a Brexit!
I have to agree, corbyn and abbot would be worse than staying in the EU or having a bad exit, a lot worse.

It is imperative that everything is done to prevent this. I hate the tories but I will tolerate them if it means keeping the marxists out.

Sadly, TM does not seem to have it in her to take a risk with her job at stake. She smells like a person tip toeing around to try to do everything that she can to stay in her job.
 
Make us less influential, less important, poorer economically, socially and diplomatically. A laughing stock to our neighbours and a joke as far as Trump and his carpetbaggers are concerned.
A path along which CMD and his coalition of invertebrates had already set us.

(cf. CMD's disastrous pre-referendum "deal".)
 
Last edited:
Well no actually

I voted for a Conservative who won, and I expect him to stick to the Conservative manifesto and follow the Conservative ethos

I did not vote to elect somebody on a Conservative ticket to do what ever they wanted in the HoP, if he wanted to do otherwise then he should have stood as an Independent (In which case he would have not got in)

Archie
This is a very troubling constant in modern politics. They no longer accept that their job is to represent your interests in parliment...not their own.

I wrote to my MP recently about something, he replied saying that actually, he thinks that I am wrong and will not be passing on my concerns or asking for a debate (words to that effect) and my very first thought was ¨I don´t give a **** what you think, I am telling you to look after my interests and be my voice in parliment¨.

Yes, I do understand that he has to try to find the consensus of opinion among his constituents (there seems to be no effort made in this regard) and he must filter out the insane from the worthwhile but I do not require his agreement with my concerns, I want him in the house asking my questions acting on my behalf, as is his job.
 
This is a very troubling constant in modern politics. They no longer accept that their job is to represent your interests in parliment...not their own.

I wrote to my MP recently about something, he replied saying that actually, he thinks that I am wrong and will not be passing on my concerns or asking for a debate (words to that effect) and my very first thought was ¨I don´t give a **** what you think, I am telling you to look after my interests and be my voice in parliment¨.

Yes, I do understand that he has to try to find the consensus of opinion among his constituents (there seems to be no effort made in this regard) and he must filter out the insane from the worthwhile but I do not require his agreement with my concerns, I want him in the house asking my questions acting on my behalf, as is his job.
The calibre and nature of MPs has changed for the worse. I used to listen to 'Pienaars Politics' (sic) on Radio 5 until, one Sunday, I heard him interview an MP. He asked the MP what she would like to be remembered for and she replied that she hoped it was her good taste in music. Not 'my campaign in Parliament to do x'.
For some, politics has become a career and the 'star' MPs like Kinnock, Ummana, etc seem to think they are celebrities and forget they derive their influence and status from their constituents.
As for those like Soubry and Clarke, you wonder if they are in part on an ego trip. I don't doubt that they think themselves sincere but they are the big 'I ams' of the moment.
Public service. Now out of fashion.
 
To be fair, when all is said and done....it´s over, we cant stay in the EU and after a year of thinking about it and looking at the state that the EU has got itself into with the continued immigration crisis and crippling financial problems, I think we are better off cutting ourselves free from it before it collapses in on itself.

I voted to remain, we lost and maybe we should have but here we are, it´s done and now we have to focus our attention of doing the best job of it that we can, making new friends around the world and in europe NOW, not after we leave.

We need to take drastic action to deal with this, cancel tuition fees for STEMM subjects at Universities for British Citizens so that we can use our own labour pool for the NHS and not Sajid Javid´s new initiaive to just open the doors to mass migration again in the name of the NHS.

We need to be sending our best guys out to every big european economy to meet with their industry leaders and start making us an attractive option for trade and manufacturing again.

We need to be getting Trump over here making speeches from Parliament about how bloody great we are and how cheap it can be to run your business in the UK.

There are a great many other action points that are simply not being acted on at the moment while everyone is dilly dallying around.

Not least, a new Constitution, written down this time to herald the beginning of a new age of Britain and one that will put a stop to this slippery slope of authoritarianism that we are half way down.
Merkle is in trouble now because of it, The average German seems to have had enough, Italy have had enough, Czech republic, Hungary, Poland and a growing number of Spaniards.

French, German and Spanish NGO´s are patroling the north coast of africa now and are picking up thousands of migrants a few miles off the coast of africa and are trafficking them across the water to southern europe, with the blessing of the EU (or it would have been stopped).

Rant over
 
This is a very troubling constant in modern politics. They no longer accept that their job is to represent your interests in parliment...not their own.

I wrote to my MP recently about something, he replied saying that actually, he thinks that I am wrong and will not be passing on my concerns or asking for a debate (words to that effect) and my very first thought was ¨I don´t give a **** what you think, I am telling you to look after my interests and be my voice in parliment¨.

Yes, I do understand that he has to try to find the consensus of opinion among his constituents (there seems to be no effort made in this regard) and he must filter out the insane from the worthwhile but I do not require his agreement with my concerns, I want him in the house asking my questions acting on my behalf, as is his job.
And what happens when your concern isn't in his party manifesto? According to @Archibald you get chinned off for four-five years?

My point is that it's overly simplistic to say "well that's democracy". Our system is evolutionary and there's no written constitution. There's a tension between an MP's (let alone a Minister's) duty to his/her constituents, to his party (which only exist in terms of 'form'*) and to their conscience.

* think about it: you don't vote for a cabinet, let alone a prime minister. You vote for an MP as a representative of your constituency.
 
To be fair, when all is said and done....it´s over, we cant stay in the EU and after a year of thinking about it and looking at the state that the EU has got itself into with the continued immigration crisis and crippling financial problems, I think we are better off cutting ourselves free from it before it collapses in on itself.

I voted to remain, we lost and maybe we should have but here we are, it´s done and now we have to focus our attention of doing the best job of it that we can, making new friends around the world and in europe NOW, not after we leave.

We need to take drastic action to deal with this, cancel tuition fees for STEMM subjects at Universities for British Citizens so that we can use our own labour pool for the NHS and not Sajid Javid´s new initiaive to just open the doors to mass migration again in the name of the NHS.

We need to be sending our best guys out to every big european economy to meet with their industry leaders and start making us an attractive option for trade and manufacturing again.

We need to be getting Trump over here making speeches from Parliament about how bloody great we are and how cheap it can be to run your business in the UK.

There are a great many other action points that are simply not being acted on at the moment while everyone is dilly dallying around.

Not least, a new Constitution, written down this time to herald the beginning of a new age of Britain and one that will put a stop to this slippery slope of authoritarianism that we are half way down.
Merkle is in trouble now because of it, The average German seems to have had enough, Italy have had enough, Czech republic, Hungary, Poland and a growing number of Spaniards.

French, German and Spanish NGO´s are patroling the north coast of africa now and are picking up thousands of migrants a few miles off the coast of africa and are trafficking them across the water to southern europe, with the blessing of the EU (or it would have been stopped).

Rant over
Thank you for your honesty, like you I find it quite incredible that there is no concerted effort being made by the Govt and UK Business to advertise the UK is open and ready and willing to do business - for example, we should hold a massive ' Britain is Open' event where all UK businesses are invited to display there wares alongside Royalty and other UK institutions/Pop icons etc - we should be wining and dining business leaders and politicians from all over the world and if I had my way bringing the royal yacht 'Britannia' back into service and sending the Queen etc around the World to visit China etc - by all accounts the amount of Business generated for UK PLC on that ship, by people desperate to be seen with the Queen, was absolutely staggering! and should not be discounted by sad minded internet trolls with a grudge against the Royalty.
At present, I have seen zero evidence of any effort being made by anyone to promote the UK. Instead, TM is just allowing the EU and its Media to control the narrative.
This shows that either the no10 communications director is completely incompetent or its deliberate! A decent leader would be fighting and winning the information war.
Sadly TM doesn't know how to win, doesn't want to win and is a national embarrassment at a time when we need someone with Leadership qualities - NONE of the other part leaders are any better!
 
To use another posters analogy, buckling under the nazis because it's the easiest thing to do was wrong.

A majority vote based on wrong information, lies and deceit doesn't say much for democracy.


Nothing to do with democracy, it's what's good for the country. How many votes would Brexit have got if it had said. 'Vote Brexit, wreck the country , bring down the government. Make us less influential, less important, poorer economically, socially and diplomatically. A laughing stock to our neighbours and a joke as far as Trump and his carpetbaggers are concerned'.
If I've got it wrong tell me the upside.
Bottom line no one knows the effects Brexit will have particularly the economic effects and the honest people who aren't politicians have said so.
I'm interested you think it's nothing to do with democracy because one of the two big reasons I voted leave is that the EU isn't a democratic organisation in the the Uk understands the principles. The EU is effectively run by the civil service i.e the commission, who are appointees who are generally has been [or occasionally like Neil Kinnock, never quite were], leading politicians. The parliament is a rubber stamp organisation, not quite as pointless as the old soviet unions but not far off. It is very clear that the intention of the commission is to create a federal europe where we will obey one set of rules at all times, theirs. I'm willing to see my living standards drop for a few years to avoid this.
My main reason for voting to leave was that the aforementioned grand federal Europe will be a huge single economy and like big things everywhere it won't work because by its sheer size it will have inflexible one size fits all rules and one size won't fit all. [One of the Reasons the idiot Trump is in the White House is the US states who aren't economically successful voted for him]. We have enough trouble in this country when the North or the Scots think they are being treated unfairly during negative economic times. Those problems will be significantly bigger when it's whole countries. Look at Greece's reaction to the 'German imposed' [as they see it] austerity measures.
Neither of these reasons are in any way impacted by the rubbish that was talked by both sides at the time of the referendum so I don't think I voted based on wrong information. You seem to believe otherwise and will probably continue to do so, but in my view you've fallen for the lies about how Britain cannot survive outside the EU, without Mutti Merkel telling us what to do we will be economic basket case overnight etc.
Time will tell.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top