What happens if the government loses a Brexit-related HoC vote?

Auld-Yin

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this really is make or break time for Teresa May! she has to grow a pair and challenge Dominique Grieve to vote against the Govt on Wednesday and usher in the disaster that is Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott with the Communist party - my personal feeling is that enough Traitors will back down if they believe May actually means it because the very thought of the Dear Leader being allowed anywhere near the levers of power is far far worse than anything that could go wrong with a Brexit!
But Clarke, Grieve, Soubry and a few others that have recently crawled out if the woodwork have said quite clearly that
a) they respect the referendum result
b) they don't want to upset the apple cart
c) they won't bring down PMTM
d) and consistently that the British public did not know what they were doing when they voted for brexit.

Well, if you believe them then Hell mend you.

In reality they really want
a) to overturn the referendum
b) to make as much trouble regardless of consequence
c) get a full on Remainer in No10
d) when did MPs actually care or take notice of what the public votes for? They want what they see as good for them*.


*This probably counts for Brexit MP's also! :D
 
On a defeat of a major Bill, this month or next then a collapse and another election is likely.

However, I've been impressed so far by PMTM's ability to cling on. No-one else wants to be responsible for this disaster.

So, who knows?
I don't think it's a case of her hanging on. It's much more a case of no one being stupid enough to want to take up the poisoned chalice that is the post of PM at the moment. Damned if the PM does and damned if the PM doesn't.
 
But Clarke, Grieve, Soubry and a few others that have recently crawled out if the woodwork have said quite clearly that
a) they respect the referendum result
b) they don't want to upset the apple cart
c) they won't bring down PMTM
d) and consistently that the British public did not know what they were doing when they voted for brexit.

Well, if you believe them then Hell mend you.

In reality they really want
a) to overturn the referendum
b) to make as much trouble regardless of consequence
c) get a full on Remainer in No10
d) when did MPs actually care or take notice of what the public votes for? They want what they see as good for them*.


*This probably counts for Brexit MP's also! :D
In the context of the government not having an overall majority, the power of any dissident Tories (on either side of the argument) is huge. However, that power itself relies upon there being a minority government. That is, the status quo gives them power. If they defeat the government, the status quo ends and with it their almost unique power.
It is an interesting problem for the rebels.
 
Re. the random selection of members of a second chamber, I am reminded of the early days of the National Lottery (bear with me...). When the aforementioned tax raising by sleight of hand scheme was introduced, the BBC allowed randomly selected members of the public to start the main draw. After about three weeks, in which the draw was made by a number of seemingly feckless, toothless, tracksuit-clad welfare recipients, possessing a limited command of English, the idea was dropped.
The point is that random is random. There would have to be so many caveats to membership - minimum education standards, health criteria, not a drug or alcohol addict or a criminal, not anyone 'beyond the pale', someone with a knowledge of basic manners, someone able to speeka da Engleesh - that it would cease to be random or representative.
Not to mention 'self selection bias' and a significant disincentive for the employed to get involved
 
I don't think it's a case of her hanging on. It's much more a case of no one being stupid enough to want to take up the poisoned chalice that is the post of PM at the moment. Damned if the PM does and damned if the PM doesn't.

I don't know; if there was an individual with the guts, determination, principles, and leadership qualities to step up to the mark, then that individual could potentially reap the most enormous political dividends and popular support - the electorate are getting desperate for clear leadership.

Without irony, Churchill and Maggie spring to mind as examples of leaders who achieved a groundswell of support in a difficult time. Clearly May is not that person - she lacks any credibility and hasn't even tried to make some sort of grand rallying call. Nearly all the current MP list are dead wood in these circumstances.

I think there has to be the most tremendous blood-letting in the politcal parties. If the Conservatives are the only feasible governing party, then perhaps 75% of the current MPs need to be axed, and replaced with new blood who understand that it is a Brexit Britain that they will be custodians of.
 
I don't know; if there was an individual with the guts, determination, principles, and leadership qualities to step up to the mark, then that individual could potentially reap the most enormous political dividends and popular support - the electorate are getting desperate for clear leadership.

Without irony, Churchill and Maggie spring to mind as examples of leaders who achieved a groundswell of support in a difficult time. Clearly May is not that person - she lacks any credibility and hasn't even tried to make some sort of grand rallying call. Nearly all the current MP list are dead wood in these circumstances.

I think there has to be the most tremendous blood-letting in the politcal parties. If the Conservatives are the only feasible governing party, then perhaps 75% of the current MPs need to be axed, and replaced with new blood who understand that it is a Brexit Britain that they will be custodians of.
Meanwhile, in the real world.

Unfortunately for the UK.
 

Auld-Yin

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I don't know; if there was an individual with the guts, determination, principles, and leadership qualities to step up to the mark, then that individual could potentially reap the most enormous political dividends and popular support - the electorate are getting desperate for clear leadership.

Without irony, Churchill and Maggie spring to mind as examples of leaders who achieved a groundswell of support in a difficult time. Clearly May is not that person - she lacks any credibility and hasn't even tried to make some sort of grand rallying call. Nearly all the current MP list are dead wood in these circumstances.

I think there has to be the most tremendous blood-letting in the politcal parties. If the Conservatives are the only feasible governing party, then perhaps 75% of the current MPs need to be axed, and replaced with new blood who understand that it is a Brexit Britain that they will be custodians of.
Won't happen though :(
 

skid2

LE
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I don't know; if there was an individual with the guts, determination, principles, and leadership qualities to step up to the mark, then that individual could potentially reap the most enormous political dividends and popular support - the electorate are getting desperate for clear leadership.

Without irony, Churchill and Maggie spring to mind as examples of leaders who achieved a groundswell of support in a difficult time. Clearly May is not that person - she lacks any credibility and hasn't even tried to make some sort of grand rallying call. Nearly all the current MP list are dead wood in these circumstances.

I think there has to be the most tremendous blood-letting in the politcal parties. If the Conservatives are the only feasible governing party, then perhaps 75% of the current MPs need to be axed, and replaced with new blood who understand that it is a Brexit Britain that they will be custodians of.

That's something Maggie and May have in common, both the architects of their own downfall. Maggie when she outlived her usefulness and May when she outlives her usefulness as a Brexit flak jacket.

I've said it before if they'd given Churchill this Brexit thing. He'd have laughed at them and gone back to his painting and bricklaying.
 
That's something Maggie and May have in common, both the architects of their own downfall. Maggie when she outlived her usefulness and May when she outlives her usefulness as a Brexit flak jacket.

I've said it before if they'd given Churchill this Brexit thing. He'd have laughed at them and gone back to his painting and bricklaying.
I don't know: getting Brexit right could be as vital as defying AH in 1940. There are reputations to be made. Churchill had an ego - he would jump at the chance.
 

skid2

LE
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I don't know: getting Brexit right could be as vital as defying AH in 1940. There are reputations to be made. Churchill had an ego - he would jump at the chance.

Ego yes, stupid no.
And identifying Europe with the Nazis is a hell of a stretch.
Beating the Nazis required an alliance............the very opposite of Brexit.
 
Ego yes, stupid no.
And identifying Europe with the Nazis is a hell of a stretch.
Beating the Nazis required an alliance............the very opposite of Brexit.
Good point. I mean that it is as serious as our greatest past crises. Not that the EU are Nazis.

Churchill may sometimes have been stupid but that's a whole other thread.

We need someone to stand up and try and make Brexit work. Anyone.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Good point. I mean that it is as serious as our greatest past crises. Not that the EU are Nazis.

Churchill may sometimes have been stupid but that's a whole other thread.

We need someone to stand up and try and make Brexit work. Anyone.
We need someone to stand up and admit that this has been the stupedist thing we've ever done and stop Brexit dead.
 
I don't know; if there was an individual with the guts, determination, principles, and leadership qualities to step up to the mark, then that individual could potentially reap the most enormous political dividends and popular support - the electorate are getting desperate for clear leadership.

Without irony, Churchill and Maggie spring to mind as examples of leaders who achieved a groundswell of support in a difficult time. Clearly May is not that person - she lacks any credibility and hasn't even tried to make some sort of grand rallying call. Nearly all the current MP list are dead wood in these circumstances.

I think there has to be the most tremendous blood-letting in the politcal parties. If the Conservatives are the only feasible governing party, then perhaps 75% of the current MPs need to be axed, and replaced with new blood who understand that it is a Brexit Britain that they will be custodians of.
If anything, this is like the situation in 1922. A major fault line through what was then the 'natural' party of government (the Liberals). And look what's happened to them. It's no coincidence the backbench grouping in the Conservatives is called the 1922 Committee. The Tory grandees have known for some time that Europe represents such a fault line for them, but always managed to patch over the cracks up until Dave called the Referendum. I'm sure that none of the 'men in grey suits' thank him for that.

It's certainly not inconceivable that this could split the party.

Regardless of one's views on Brexit, it's clear that the conservatives feel it's 'better to reign in hell than serve in heaven', and by that I mean that up until now it seems to have been that party unity that's held them together. The string of party unity has been stronger than the centrifugal force acting on the conker.
 
The point is that random is random. There would have to be so many caveats to membership -
No your chav gets a vote in the general election they can have a vote in the second chamber as representative of a particular part of the population. I realise this idea frightens people who think democracy is a convenient cover to ensure only the right type of people can get elected.
 
If anything, this is like the situation in 1922. A major fault line through what was then the 'natural' party of government (the Liberals). And look what's happened to them. It's no coincidence the backbench grouping in the Conservatives is called the 1922 Committee. The Tory grandees have known for some time that Europe represents such a fault line for them, but always managed to patch over the cracks up until Dave called the Referendum. I'm sure that none of the 'men in grey suits' thank him for that.

It's certainly not inconceivable that this could split the party.

I think that there are lot of "c"onservative voters - especially the ones who didn't vote in 2017, or perhaps even since CMD oozed in - who hope that the party will split, and that a more centre-right entity arises. This particularly so as May lurches further and further to the left in her attempts to court popularity.
 
We need someone to stand up and admit that this has been the stupedist thing we've ever done and stop Brexit dead.
Yes I mean there's no point in democracy if you don't fix the result is there.
 
We won't agree on that point BUT, even if Brexit is a mistake, surely we need someone to at least try to make the best of it?
Ah but to a remainer that's to fiddle the exit so we haven't really left i.e. still in the customs union and single market; because we leavers will either be too stupid to notice or all dead of old age in 5 years. One argument is that a no deal leave will be the best outcome because it will force both sides to do without the other and later make deals that make sense to both parties if they see a real aadvantage, or just get on without if they find other markets. On that basis all this apparent cock up is actually quite a good thing.
 

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