What happens if the government loses a Brexit-related HoC vote?

#81
Not sure I go with you on this one.

Firstly why only the HoL - I personally would like to see them abolished and replaced with proper scrutiny at committee level.

Sortation i.e. selecting randomly by ballot would only be the first stage. If, for example, we selected thirty people by ballot for a constituency then a second stage where they meet and vote three of their number to go forward would largely remove the bad, mad, and not interested.

That's a bigger and more representative pool than the parties are drawing from.

Don't understand where you're coming from wrt "dictatorship" - a random ballot drawn from all eligible residents in the constituency would break any capture. Indeed the big advantage of sortation for me is the complete destruction of the party system.

Have a glance at this if you have time. I'd be interested in your reaction.

I don't know if that is such a great idea, I mean, the average person is not necessarily suited to a leadership and management role right?

Running something as important as a country means we need the bets people for the job.
 
#82
You are absolutely correct, the reason the UK is becoming a sideshow is because the member states have had enough of the uncompromising principals of a few fanatics in Brussels! One by one, the liberal left socialist leaning govts in Europe are being voted out and the peoples who have seen their so societies and traditions breaking down under forced mass migration and protectionist trade policies have quitte simply had enough!
- I just wish our media would properly report what's really going on in Europe wrt to the massive argument going on between Germany/Austria/France/Italy wrt immigration and border control (Schengen is in tatters!) the Visograd countries on-going battle against EU interference, Merkhel on the brink of being kicked out, the downgrading of the German economic forecast (last week), Deutche bank being on the brink (last 6 months) and the imminent end of European Central Bank QE programme which will add to the already steady drop off in Eurozone Growth which was being artificially supported by it at the cost of 2Bn Euro's a month.
Once people in the UK start to be briefed on what's going on in Europe I believe that en more people will want to leave before we get caught up in the deteriation and eventual disintegration of the EU back to what it should always have been - 5 major northern countries with similar economies.
Sadly, 99% of all Brexit news presented to the UK public only looks at it from internally within the UK giving the impression the enemy's side is all a bed of roses and going swimmingly! which must be a deliberate ploy of the media - even an ardent Remainer needs to understand the full picture to understand what they are trying to tie us in to.
Sweden's coming election is potentially the turning point, the Swedes are possibly the worst when it comes to immigration and PC culture and it appears that they are finally rebelling against it with the Swede Democrats looking good in the run up to the sept election.
 
#83
I don't know if that is such a great idea, I mean, the average person is not necessarily suited to a leadership and management role right?
Well I'm not honestly suggesting we pick the next Foreign Secretary by ballot - that would mean you could end up with a clown in charge.

Rather I'm suggesting a two stage process where we select a random pool of citizens for each constituency and then they select the best from amongst themselves. The purpose of the random ballot is a) to break the party system, and b) to ensure the pool of potential representatives represent what the constituency actually looks like: age, sex, religion etc.

Running something as important as a country means we need the best people for the job.
And the parties select from a small pool of people who are often wildly unrepresentative who then stand in the occasional election to choose the next PM. They are then whipped into submission by their own ambitions and rapidly become mere lobby fodder.

With the parties all preaching from the same sheet with only minor differences its not much of a claim to democracy; more a kakocracy.
 
#84
Well I'm not honestly suggesting we pick the next Foreign Secretary by ballot - that would mean you could end up with a clown in charge.

Rather I'm suggesting a two stage process where we select a random pool of citizens for each constituency and then they select the best from amongst themselves. The purpose of the random ballot is a) to break the party system, and b) to ensure the pool of potential representatives represent what the constituency actually looks like: age, sex, religion etc.



And the parties select from a small pool of people who are often wildly unrepresentative who then stand in the occasional election to choose the next PM. They are then whipped into submission by their own ambitions and rapidly become mere lobby fodder.

With the parties all preaching from the same sheet with only minor differences its not much of a claim to democracy; more a kakocracy.
I am not saying that I think the Party system is very good either. I am very open to new ways of doing it.

The truth of the matter is that what we have now started off on the right track with Liberalism (I mean the classical liberalism, not what we now call liberalism) but has been thoroughly corrupted to forum the cored of an aristocracy.

I quite like the principles of anarcho-capitalism personally but accept that not everyone wants that and see no viable way to transition to that type of society anyway so it''s a bit of a non-starter for the UK at least.

In your example though, i would be more comfortable if the people selected at random (like jury duty i assume?) did not go on to select whoever they wanted to join them. There is a growing problem with bloc voting, a natural consequence of multiculturalism. People voting for the person who is most like them eg, turks voting in Germany and the Netherlands for candidates who are either Turks themselves or who are not anti turk (and encouraged to do so by the Turkish PM).

Sadiq Khan for example, benefits hugely and may even owe his London Mayoral success to the large Muslim population in London. On merrit, he does not have much going for him.

In your scenario, it opens to door to more of this sort of thing which is not acceptable to me.
 
#85
In your example though, i would be more comfortable if the people selected at random (like jury duty i assume?) did not go on to select whoever they wanted to join them.
Agree - the idea is that the people selected by ballot meet up in a local hotel and select from amongst themselves a few to go forward as representatives with a spare. The ninety-seven odd who are not selected or decline to take part go home and we never hear from them again unless they're picked in a random ballot again in later years.

There is a growing problem with bloc voting, a natural consequence of multiculturalism. People voting for the person who is most like them eg, turks voting in Germany and the Netherlands for candidates who are either Turks themselves or who are not anti turk (and encouraged to do so by the Turkish PM).

Sadiq Khan for example, benefits hugely and may even owe his London Mayoral success to the large Muslim population in London. On merrit, he does not have much going for him.

In your scenario, it opens to door to more of this sort of thing which is not acceptable to me.
Agreed - but again nope. The ballot picks a representative sample: short, fat, black, white whatever.
 
#86
...... the government could (and IMHO should) argue that it is implementing the result of the referendum, and needs no further authority and the House of Commons has no further role. But of course Mrs May has neither the charisma, guts nor control for that.....
The rule in the UK is that Parliament (not the government) is sovereign. No government can say that the House of Commons, or the HoL for that matter, has no role. The results of referendums are not legally binding (as that would make the people sovereign over parliament) and parliament may not enact a law that binds its successors.

......An unelected body seeking to block the implementation of the result of a referendum is hardly democracy in action....
See Above. The HoL can't block legislation anyway, merely delay it.

It will be interesting to see how the Conservatives recover from the trauma post-Brexit. How will they find a successor to May? The divisions in the party seem irreconcilable and finding a candidate acceptable to both wings of the party seems unlikely. Indeed could we see a Conservative split post-Brexit? It will be even more interesting if Scottish and/or Northern Irish secessionists take advantage of the chaos to make a try for Scexit or NIexit.
 
#87
Agree - the idea is that the people selected by ballot meet up in a local hotel and select from amongst themselves a few to go forward as representatives with a spare. The ninety-seven odd who are not selected or decline to take part go home and we never hear from them again unless they're picked in a random ballot again in later years.



Agreed - but again nope. The ballot picks a representative sample: short, fat, black, white whatever.
OK so if ten people get selected at random, they then choose then best 3 of themselves to go forward? Thats not as bad as i thought it was. I will probably read the pdf from above that explains this but at 21 pages I don''y have time yet
 
#89
The rule in the UK is that Parliament (not the government) is sovereign. No government can say that the House of Commons, or the HoL for that matter, has no role. The results of referendums are not legally binding (as that would make the people sovereign over parliament) and parliament may not enact a law that binds its successors.



See Above. The HoL can't block legislation anyway, merely delay it.

It will be interesting to see how the Conservatives recover from the trauma post-Brexit. How will they find a successor to May? The divisions in the party seem irreconcilable and finding a candidate acceptable to both wings of the party seems unlikely. Indeed could we see a Conservative split post-Brexit? It will be even more interesting if Scottish and/or Northern Irish secessionists take advantage of the chaos to make a try for Scexit or NIexit.
Can’t speak of the rats nest that is norn iron politics. But from my work in the people’s republic of jockistan, the nationalists fox has been shot as the smoke and mirrors regarding paying for their nirvana no longer works. Many that gave them the benefit of the doubt just find their antics an embarrassment now.however turbulent British politics gets most Scots will still be able to read a balance sheet.
What might swing it for them would be if England and Wales also had a vote on NI and Scotland leaving.
 
#90
It will be interesting to see how the Conservatives recover from the trauma post-Brexit. How will they find a successor to May? The divisions in the party seem irreconcilable and finding a candidate acceptable to both wings of the party seems unlikely. Indeed could we see a Conservative split post-Brexit? It will be even more interesting if Scottish and/or Northern Irish secessionists take advantage of the chaos to make a try for Scexit or NIexit.
They said that in 1846 over the Corn Laws. Unlike the Labour party who feel [Blair aside] that they must stand for certain principles regardless of what the electorate think of them, the Tory party has always focussed on being electable and adopted it's position accordingly. Post Brexit, if Brexit works the Tory party will be pro-Brexit, if it doesn't they will be anti. The leadership will reflect the view of the party, the losers will end up on the back benches or leave. It might take 1-2 electoral cycles and we might have to suffer a Corbynist renationalisation/economic collapse along the way but in 20 years it will all have blown over.
As for SCexit or NIexit the Tories are also the Unionist party and will campaign against a break up, despite the fact that as a party with most support in England they have most to gain by such a division.
 
#91
My understanding is that if the House can over rule the Government, we could find real Brexit being forever kicked down the road.
I also believe that approx 70% of MPs are pro-remain while slightly less than 50% of the electorate are.
Therefore, if the peoples' wish is not carried out, 20% of the House are not representing anything other than their own agendas.

British democracy would then be seen to be a farce and if violence kicks off on the streets, I will not condemn it.
 
#92
Not sure I go with you on this one.

Firstly why only the HoL - I personally would like to see them abolished and replaced with proper scrutiny at committee level.

Sortation i.e. selecting randomly by ballot would only be the first stage. If, for example, we selected thirty people by ballot for a constituency then a second stage where they meet and vote three of their number to go forward would largely remove the bad, mad, and not interested.

That's a bigger and more representative pool than the parties are drawing from.

Don't understand where you're coming from wrt "dictatorship" - a random ballot drawn from all eligible residents in the constituency would break any capture. Indeed the big advantage of sortation for me is the complete destruction of the party system.

Have a glance at this if you have time. I'd be interested in your reaction.
It sounds a little bit like the US 'electoral college' system. That doesn't always work well, does it?
 
#94
My understanding is that if the House can over rule the Government, we could find real Brexit being forever kicked down the road.
I also believe that approx 70% of MPs are pro-remain while slightly less than 50% of the electorate are.
Therefore, if the peoples' wish is not carried out, 20% of the House are not representing anything other than their own agendas.

British democracy would then be seen to be a farce and if violence kicks off on the streets, I will not condemn it.
"can over rule the Government"
No, they can only delay for up to a year is my understanding
 
#95
You are absolutely correct, the reason the UK is becoming a sideshow is because the member states have had enough of the uncompromising principals of a few fanatics in Brussels! One by one, the liberal left socialist leaning govts in Europe are being voted out and the peoples who have seen their so societies and traditions breaking down under forced mass migration and protectionist trade policies have quitte simply had enough!
- I just wish our media would properly report what's really going on in Europe wrt to the massive argument going on between Germany/Austria/France/Italy wrt immigration and border control (Schengen is in tatters!) the Visograd countries on-going battle against EU interference, Merkhel on the brink of being kicked out, the downgrading of the German economic forecast (last week), Deutche bank being on the brink (last 6 months) and the imminent end of European Central Bank QE programme which will add to the already steady drop off in Eurozone Growth which was being artificially supported by it at the cost of 2Bn Euro's a month.
Once people in the UK start to be briefed on what's going on in Europe I believe that en more people will want to leave before we get caught up in the deteriation and eventual disintegration of the EU back to what it should always have been - 5 major northern countries with similar economies.
Sadly, 99% of all Brexit news presented to the UK public only looks at it from internally within the UK giving the impression the enemy's side is all a bed of roses and going swimmingly! which must be a deliberate ploy of the media - even an ardent Remainer needs to understand the full picture to understand what they are trying to tie us in to.
Germany are have a few problems, as reported by Der Spiegel.
Asylstreit Merkel vs. Seehofer: Eine neue Dynamik für Deutschland - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Politik
Asylstreit: Wer sind die Player in der Unionskrise - und was wollen sie? - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Politik
 
#96
Can’t speak of the rats nest that is norn iron politics. But from my work in the people’s republic of jockistan, the nationalists fox has been shot as the smoke and mirrors regarding paying for their nirvana no longer works. Many that gave them the benefit of the doubt just find their antics an embarrassment now.however turbulent British politics gets most Scots will still be able to read a balance sheet.
What might swing it for them would be if England and Wales also had a vote on NI and Scotland leaving.
That would be a massive mistake. I've got a lot of jock mates and they are all, to a man (and a few genders in between) totally against an independent Jockland. If we brave Englanders had a vote, I'm afraid they'd get their wish....by a fecking landslide!
Not sure about the Welsh, there's probably more English in Wales than the funny talking sheep shaggers.
 
#97
Re. the random selection of members of a second chamber, I am reminded of the early days of the National Lottery (bear with me...). When the aforementioned tax raising by sleight of hand scheme was introduced, the BBC allowed randomly selected members of the public to start the main draw. After about three weeks, in which the draw was made by a number of seemingly feckless, toothless, tracksuit-clad welfare recipients, possessing a limited command of English, the idea was dropped.
The point is that random is random. There would have to be so many caveats to membership - minimum education standards, health criteria, not a drug or alcohol addict or a criminal, not anyone 'beyond the pale', someone with a knowledge of basic manners, someone able to speeka da Engleesh - that it would cease to be random or representative.
 
#98
Not really a massive fib. Money saved from leaving the EU will be used. Also (whispers) possible tax rises and a review of NHS spending may be needed to cover shortfalls.

There won't be any savings. There will be a net cost.
 
Guess we’ll find out shortly. =-D

Brexit deal: 'Meaningful vote' battle resumes in Lords New Brexit defeat for government in Lords
this really is make or break time for Teresa May! she has to grow a pair and challenge Dominique Grieve to vote against the Govt on Wednesday and usher in the disaster that is Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott with the Communist party - my personal feeling is that enough Traitors will back down if they believe May actually means it because the very thought of the Dear Leader being allowed anywhere near the levers of power is far far worse than anything that could go wrong with a Brexit!
 

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