What compulsory ID will be like...

Will this kind of thing happen in the UK if/when compulsory ID is introduced?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
As of 1.1.05, here in the Netherlands we have had to carry ID at all times out of our houses ("Identificatieverplicht"). This means that I am breaking the law and could be fined heavily every time I go for a run, since there is nowhere in my running kit to keep an identity card.

"They won't randomly check you", they assured us, "it'll just be used when we need to ascertain your identity for official purposes". "It'll make you safer from terrorists and organised crime and the boogeyman under your bed".

I was skeptical, to say the least.

Then, a friend of mine was on a train coming back from Germany. There are no border controls any more, so they don't have a right to ask for a passport at the border. However, once comfortably inside Dutch territory, some police got on the train, and demanded to see everyone's ID under the Identificatieverplicht rules. They stormed through the carriage, and roughly addressed people:

"Show me your ID - or I'll fine you".

Anyone without the correct ID was fined on the spot. A nice little earner for the police, and certainly easier than catching robbers.

If anyone thinks that this could/would not happen in the UK, you need a reality check...

Mr Clarke, he say: AUSWEIS BITTE!
 
#2
Why do people seem to be so concerned about carrying ID cards?
Admittedly we're used to it in the military, but are the vociferous anti-ID card gang worried because they have something to hide?
Seems to me that anything that can help to cut down crime/benefit fraud et al ain't such a bad idea.
Changing tack slightly, anyone see the dichotomy between allowing 24 hr drinking and baning fags in pubs?
 
#3
charley, regarding the fag ban and 24 hr drinking.

It is a bribe to the pubs and clubs industry in order to let the govt pass its no smoking bill

the tax that the govt will lose from banning fags will be recovered from 24 hrs drinking.

Smoke and mirrors :twisted:
 
#5
"It is a bribe to the pubs and clubs industry in order to let the govt pass its no smoking bill " Says Agent_Smith.

Good Lord! How very cynical! There's me thinking we lived in a democracy....Doh!
 
#6
Charleyb - so you're not concerned that the police will stop you in public places and ask for your ID? They said they wouldn't do it in NL, and they have. They have said that they won't do it in the UK, but if the experience here is typical, they wll.

If I remember correctly, this sort of thing only happens in times of war, or in nasty police states. Do you live in Britain, that once shining beacon of freedom and liberty, or the Soviet Union? After all, in the Soviet Union, if you had nothing to hide you had nothing to fear, right???
 
#7
I don't have a problem being stopped and asked for my ID - as long as I'm not rushing to get a pint before last orders (if the pubs are closing!) or trying to get home to give mrs Charley the good news...my opinion only. Is Stoatman more concerned that the NL cops lied?? I would be.
 
#8
I dont see why we need another bloody form of ID.

We have a passport, NI card, Driving license, and umpteen other cards that can be used to prove who you are. Granted most of these (if not all) can be forged.

If that is the case, then why not just alter the passport to include the 'super duper, baddy proof' technology that they want to include on the new cards?

Surely that would solve a lot of problems and not mean another huge cost, fuss, database, waste of time and money and infringement of our civil liberties?

problem solved!

As for Stoatmans poll, i agree that if there is a chance for corruption (or just picking on easy targets) that someone somwehere will take it!
 

Mr_Fingerz

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
All new passports issued after a certain date (forgotten which) will contain "the 'super duper, baddy proof' technology that they want to include on the new cards" (biometric data). When you apply for your new passport, you'll also get an ID card which will contain the same biometric data.

All of this will have to go on to a new database - how else will they be able to tell that I'm not genetically identical to Sean Connery?
 

Unknown_Quantity

War Hero
Moderator
#11
Agent_Smith said:
I dont see why we need another bloody form of ID.

We have a passport, NI card, Driving license, and umpteen other cards that can be used to prove who you are. Granted most of these (if not all) can be forged.
None of the pieces of ID this country uses are compulsory though, nor is all the information held in one place.
 
#12
Why should they need to be compulsory?

surely it is the authorities responsibility to prove who i am rather than my responsibility to prove that i am not someone else?

If that isnt the case, then they can arrest me claiming that i am someone else and it would be upto me to prove that i am myself and not the person they think i am.

See what i mean? :?
 
#13
The trouble is that all the signs are that the supposed benefits - countering DSS & immigration fraud, terrorism, crime, etc - will be delayed for years and years through incompetence or "human rights" intervention, meanwhile tax-paying law-abiding citizens will be subjected to a raft of inconveniences and extra costs. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Police & Treasury will delight in the huge extra revenue stream from honest citizens - it'll be like each one of us carrying our own personal Gatso at our own personal expense.

Actually, I do think that ID cards should be made compulsory for anyone whilst they are drawing DSS benefits, and that "identity fraud" should be punishable up there with major offences. When those people stop drawing benefit, then they no longer have to produce ID. (I was once involved in one investigation where a couple of Nigerian "students" had about 15 DS "identities" between them and were raking in a six-figure sum in benefits. As far as i know, they were never even deported, nor was the money recouped....)
 

Unknown_Quantity

War Hero
Moderator
#14
I do see what you mean, and I am not in favour of the idea myself. However, if you were in charge of the security/getting money from almost 60M people where would you like to place the burdon of proof of identity?

I don't like it, but I can see why the government wants to do it.
 
#15
stoatman said:
Then, a friend of mine was on a train coming back from Germany. There are no border controls any more, so they don't have a right to ask for a passport at the border. However, once comfortably inside Dutch territory, some police got on the train, and demanded to see everyone's ID under the Identificatieverplicht rules. They stormed through the carriage, and roughly addressed people:

"Show me your ID - or I'll fine you".

Anyone without the correct ID was fined on the spot. A nice little earner for the police, and certainly easier than catching robbers.

If anyone thinks that this could/would not happen in the UK, you need a reality check...

Mr Clarke, he say: AUSWEIS BITTE!
No problem with that. Moral of the story is, carry your ID card. I've carried ID card(s) when running off camp for donkeys. I've also carried my bank card to draw cash and kill two birds with one stone.

What is the problem with ID cards? A minor inconvenience and a supposed invasion of civil liberties!
 
#16
Previous governments, both Tory and Trot have brought the idea up and then dropped it as unworkable since the end of the wartime ID cards, so why suddenly is it workable & the solution to all our ills?

How will it help against illegal immigration when asylum seekers already have a compulsory card?
How will it help against illegal working when people simply pay cash & ask no questions?
How will it be more secure than current systems which can already be fraudulently copied?

And going by this govt's record on IT systems, I can safely say that the IT will be unreliable, will not do what it says on the tin, and will have more security holes than a piece of Swiss cheese produced by Microsoft. This brings up the problem of the centralisation of data - if you hack into the system, you will be able to obtain all the information on everyone.

The British system is also much farther reaching than any of the European systems in the scope of how much data they intend to hold, and what they intend to do with it. It's far more reminiscent of a Stazi archive than a simple identity system in a "liberal" democracy.
 
#17
scalieback said:
What is the problem with ID cards? A minor inconvenience and a supposed invasion of civil liberties!
OK, imagine this scenario which is well within the realms of possiblility:

You are pulled over by the side of the road for a, by then, routine identity check. The policeman asks you politely to wind down your window and hand him your ID card. You are busy and have an appointment to keep, so you are flustered and hand it over as quickly as you can.
He takes your card back to his car, and runs it through the reader. It checks your name and address data against wanted persons, but you are a law abiding citizen with nothing to fear, and so have no record; not even a speeding ticket. It then proceeds to check your DNA which was coded onto the card as a "necessary crime-fighting tool" against the "wanted DNA" register. Now, DNA testing is only about 99.9% effective, so every test has a 0.1% chance of giving a false positive or false negative result. A few months ago, someone was raped up in Cumbria in a place you have never been, and statistically the system will give about 22,000 false positive matches if the whole male population of the UK were to be run through the system for the DNA found in the victim. Statistically-speaking, this is not your lucky day.
The policeman returns to your car with his oppo. "Step out of the car please, sir". You comply, visibly flustered at this stage, since this meeting represents an important investment opportunity for your company. "Mr Scaleyback, I am arresting you for the rape of Jemima Puddleduck in Poortown, Cumbria on the night of January 15th this year." "But, I have never been to Poortown, Cumbria!", you protest. "Tell that to the Judge - your DNA matches that found in the victim".

Now think of the possible consequences of this happening to you...
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#18
Army ID cards are for a different purpose and were looked on by sprogs in training as a mark of a trained soldier so we wanted to have them instead of cardboard depot passes. I wont carry an id card even though I have to have a work one and it sits hidden in my wallet. When & if I am successful in emigrating I will comply with the local laws but here we dont need them only those in reciept should have them. As for id fraud how long before these are copied, knowing west africans the fakes will hit the market before the real ones and probably be more accurate. I feel uncomfortable about the Govt knowing everything about me otherwise why would I choose to be a private citizen. If I wanted them to know all then I would work for them.As for petty officials checg on my id I have been stopped a few times and asked the usual questions name etc and when asked for any id I say not only do I not have to carry it I do not have to prove who I am. If the peelers dont believe me they can always feel my collar and we'll be compensated for wrongful. I do not assist with enquirer either nick me or go harrass someone whos scared. Police state it soon will be. Rant ends out!
 
#19
Aside from the civil liberties angle and the cost to the public, just consider the computer f*ck-ups with the NHS, Child Support Agency, Passport Office, etc.
On the evidence so far I can see this one being a monumental f*ck-up too.
Doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that it will achieve anything more than existing documentation!
Secure? I don't think so; systems can be hacked and what can be made can be forged.
But our Glorious Leader says it will be good for us... And it will be a money spinner...
 
#20
Scare mongering aside Stoatman - and I assume that your eponymous hero was also lacking an alibi for his whereabouts on the night in question - I think ID cards are a jolly good idea.

No card = no benefits, no vote, no public services, etc etc etc. If this means that loads of sponging illiegal imigrants die from lack of handouts and medical care, so what?

A couple of years of years of 'population streaming' will result in less crime, more public money, and a better quality of life for the deserving.

Until mankind evolves to the point where it no longer requires the necessary adjuncts of good governance to guarantee good living, we need artificial constructs like the ID card.

Discuss :D
 

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