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weird 5.56mm round

#22
Saw some myself in Swynnerton and asked one of a C/Sgt said they were blank rounds that could be rechared that are used by un-specified foreign forces.

Nuts
 
#24
dingerr said:
Its an inspection round.
I would like to see that in A&ERs! :wink:

Its a Ultimate Training Munition(UTM) round
They use an eley rimfire blank and require a bolt conversion of the weapon so it cannot fire centrefire but apart from that everything else remains standard. A few film production companies are using them . They are all over Swynnerton.
KDB
 
#25
I hope that wouldnt be a photo of the actual round, removed from the training area?

It is both a civil and military offence....
Aware that you are a cadet, but I'm sure you're aware of this?

It would be quite stupid to admit to lying to a declaration on a military site, where people may well know who you are, or with the right determination can find out?

Not trying to be a twat about it, But, common sence and all that, yeah?

PTS
 
#26
PTS265 said:
I hope that wouldnt be a photo of the actual round, removed from the training area?

It is both a civil and military offence....
Aware that you are a cadet, but I'm sure you're aware of this?

It would be quite stupid to admit to lying to a declaration on a military site, where people may well know who you are, or with the right determination can find out?

Not trying to be a twat about it, But, common sence and all that, yeah?

PTS
I think you may be wrong PTS.

Kneedrop's description is correct. Mine was wrong. The round can be seen here:
http://utmunitions.com/HTML/556Battlefieldblank.html

As far as being a civil offence is concerned, possession of blank cartridges or empty cases is not a civil offence.

Ref a "Military Offence"
I don't know what military law has to say on this but it is not:
1) a live round
2) an unfired blank round
3) An empty case from either 1 or 2 above that had been issued to the cadet in question.

If the Cadet in question had, sometime after making a declaration bought a cartridge belt off a Goth, would he be guilty of a military offence? I suspect not.

I would venture that pursuing it would be pointless too. I have an 8mm fired blank that I picked up as a cadet at Swynnerton in 1987. 8mm blank wasn't on issue then so I doubt I committed an offence in pocketing it....
 
#27
Lance_Bombardier said:
Praetorian said:
Cadets picking up things and then lying on their declarations.....
might have...all the adults know that most cadets are lying through thier teeth anyway.
Which is precisely why we don't trust cadets. Having had a lot of dealings with both Army cadets and ATC over the years, both as a regular NCO and a VR(T) officer, I quickly learned that even the best cadet becomes a thieving little scr0te when it comes to getting souvenirs. On one fighter station I was based at in the 80s, an armourer reported evidence of tampering to an ammunition belt on a Phantom, just after a group of cadets had been shown round the hangar. The cadets were immediately stopped and their bus was searched. Along with various other tools, bits of personal kit etc. they had "liberated", were two 20mm cannon shells! The brat concerned had broken them off the belt while the armourers were deliberately distracted by his mate and the two of them claimed they were planning to empty them out at home, ffs!! Funny thing: for some reason the Station Commander banned cadets from his unit after that.

Whenever I had any cadets around my section in later years, I always made sure there was someone stationed behind them specifically to keep their sticky fingers off anything.

Bl00dy kids.... wanders off muttering....
 
#28
Just be a good little boy and turn the thing in. If you were supposed to have it, someone would have issued it to you.

As for lying on your declaration, since you've posted your mug in the Coppermine the world and his dog knows what you look like, plus you've also identified yourself as a member of Essex ACF and your username suggests you're in a Det with an RA capbadge. It shouldn't take someone with the brains of an archbishop to figure out who you are. I hope your Det Cdr relieves you of your single tape and the next AI who asks you to make that declaration makes an example of you and holds you upside down by your ankles and kicks your rib cage until your fillings fall out of your gob and onto the ground- just to make sure you're not hiding anything.

P.S. The civil and military offence being committed when you bimble off the range/ex area with live rounds or empty cases is theft.
 
#29
So you picked something up not knowing at all what it was you then lied on your declaration and posted a photo up here? And then tried to justify it by saying "everyone does it"?

Are we meant to be impressed? I suggest you take it in to your OC and confess to what you did. Maybe he'll be a good egg and conclude you got it stuck in your boot tread.

In future leave things where they are meant to be. There are reasons they don't want people making off with emptys. You've commited the act of theft! There's a reason you have to make the declaration and while you may not be subject to military law you are to civil law.

You're getting your Cadet unit a bad rep with the real Army who will no doubt end up banning you from their facilities.
 
#31
EX_STAB said:
As far as being a civil offence is concerned, possession of blank cartridges or empty cases is not a civil offence.
Nope, Thats right.

But removing them from a training area without authorisation is an offence.


If I recall Correctly...

"It Is both a civil and military offence to leave this training area, or any other training area, with ANY live rounds, empty cases, parts of rounds, pyrotechnics or parts of pyrotechnics in your posession. When I come to you, you will declare to this effect."

Obviously, exact wording will vary. But thats what it covers. Then:

"If, at any later stage, you do find any live rounds, empty cases, parts of rounds, pyrotechnics or parts of pyrotechnics, hand them in to an adult member of staff, and nothing more may be said."


PTS
 
#34
Would the regulations neccessarily apply to civilian empty cases?
If items are left on a trg area, would they not be considered as abandoned by a civil court?

I appreciate the MOD don't want people walking off with brass or rounds, could be dangerous and/or embarrasing. If a civilian film company has been filming on the same area and hasn't bothered to remove it's rubbish I think it would be pretty hard to discipline someone who cleaned up after them... especially if they are cadets...
 
#35
Definately not a builders fixing. At that girth it would shatter wood. Standard Hilti nails ( the big red things that go bang and kill more people than ND's on an annual basis) are just like nails, but rifled lightly on the outside for purchase, and slightly enlarged toward the tip for same reason. No idea where they got that design from....
 
#36
SiVileServant said:
Definately not a builders fixing. At that girth it would shatter wood. Standard Hilti nails ( the big red things that go bang and kill more people than ND's on an annual basis) are just like nails, but rifled lightly on the outside for purchase, and slightly enlarged toward the tip for same reason. No idea where they got that design from....

Good points SiVServ, but the round has already been ID'd on the previous page.
 
#37
Nige said:
Would the regulations neccessarily apply to civilian empty cases?
If items are left on a trg area, would they not be considered as abandoned by a civil court?

I appreciate the MOD don't want people walking off with brass or rounds, could be dangerous and/or embarrasing. If a civilian film company has been filming on the same area and hasn't bothered to remove it's rubbish I think it would be pretty hard to discipline someone who cleaned up after them... especially if they are cadets...
PTS265 said:
"It Is both a civil and military offence to leave this training area, or any other training area, with ANY live rounds, empty cases, parts of rounds, pyrotechnics or parts of pyrotechnics in your posession. When I come to you, you will declare to this effect

The any covers anything munitions or pyrotechnics wise.

Sure, they may have been abandoned, civvy rounds etc etc..

But the declaration the cadets have to give states they have none of these items in their possession, Civvie, Military or otherwise.

I dont think any sort of prosecution would ever stick, and I've never heard of a case on it, However, the fact remains, It's not allowed.


PTS
 
#38
PTS265 said:
Nige said:
Would the regulations neccessarily apply to civilian empty cases?
If items are left on a trg area, would they not be considered as abandoned by a civil court?

I appreciate the MOD don't want people walking off with brass or rounds, could be dangerous and/or embarrasing. If a civilian film company has been filming on the same area and hasn't bothered to remove it's rubbish I think it would be pretty hard to discipline someone who cleaned up after them... especially if they are cadets...
PTS265 said:
"It Is both a civil and military offence to leave this training area, or any other training area, with ANY live rounds, empty cases, parts of rounds, pyrotechnics or parts of pyrotechnics in your posession. When I come to you, you will declare to this effect

The any covers anything munitions or pyrotechnics wise.

Sure, they may have been abandoned, civvy rounds etc etc..

But the declaration the cadets have to give states they have none of these items in their possession, Civvie, Military or otherwise.

I dont think any sort of prosecution would ever stick, and I've never heard of a case on it, However, the fact remains, It's not allowed.


PTS
With reference to the above quote, can anybody indicate Act and Section under which removing an item is an offence?

Reason being that I regularly shoot on MOD training areas and depart with live rounds and empty cases etc. in my possession. They belong to me so I never considered it a problem but if there actually is an act prohibiting the removal of "any item" then there are a lot of civvy shooters open to prosecution. It only takes one awkward senior police officer out to make a name for himself....

Can anybody identify the act which makes this an offence?
 
#39
I believe the act is theft. As the rounds/empty cases belong to you, then it is not theft.

Just my interpretation...
 
#40
Its theft by finding. Its the same pricipal as them golf balls recovered from a course. It was a test case. Finders not exactly keepers. More like go to jailers. They're not yours. Put 'em back.

Oh, and cartridges unlike golfballs have a marking on the bottom like a thumbprint which easily i-ds them.

Not unlike my wife.
 

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