Wearing of Red Cross emblems. Anyone know the rules and where they are to be found?

BuggerAll

LE
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#1
Does anyone know what the rules are for the wearing of red cross emblems.

The only thing I can find is on the ICRC's website which says they should be a red cross on a white background made from a waterproof material (by which I take it to mean won't run if it gets wet rather than made of gortex) and must be worn on the left arm.

I have been told that to be valid they should have a unit stamp on them and that capbadged medical personnel should wear a larger red cross than non-badged personnel support staff but I cannot find those requirements anywhere.

From a practical point if view would a TRF sized (or slightly bigger) red cross on a white background on the PCS blanking panel meet the requirements?

Or perhaps a white blanking panel with a red cross on.

Would there be a problem having the Union flag on the white panel?

Could we use a round white badge on the blanking panel? -which would allow it to be slightly bigger.
 
#2
why not just put up with the issue one (which should be stamped before deployment and issued along with all the other useful items like f/ident 107's and 189's. Some units have been issuing crosses on velcro patches others have been using brassards, but only a utter nutter would wear one outside of Bastion anyway. People have been known to take the issue item to the chogi tailoring shops and get those velcro'd
Currently only role three personnel are wearing them in theatre. If you get a few spare ones then Pedro and Dustoff crews will swap them for their much groovier badges.

I think it's only a British Army requirement that Badged medical staff wear the larger cross and others wear the smaller one. Even then in the past it wasn't uncommon for badged medical staff attached to other units to be issued the wrong one as nobody knew any better. it could also be cut down smaller and be less of a target for those who bothered to wear them in the first place.

Maybe we'll all be wearing the red crystal in future anyway.
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#3
why not just put up with the issue one (which should be stamped before deployment and issued along with all the other useful items like f/ident 107's and 189's. Some units have been issuing crosses on velcro patches others have been using brassards, but only a utter nutter would wear one outside of Bastion anyway. People have been known to take the issue item to the chogi tailoring shops and get those velcro'd
Currently only role three personnel are wearing them in theatre. If you get a few spare ones then Pedro and Dustoff crews will swap them for their much groovier badges.

I think it's only a British Army requirement that Badged medical staff wear the larger cross and others wear the smaller one. Even then in the past it wasn't uncommon for badged medical staff attached to other units to be issued the wrong one as nobody knew any better. it could also be cut down smaller and be less of a target for those who bothered to wear them in the first place.

Maybe we'll all be wearing the red crystal in future anyway.
What you are saying is you don't know either.

By issue ones do you mean some of the variety of armbands and brassards that units are having made or the old cold war stock that gets dug up from the back of stores.

I'm asking because I'm involved in a discussion about what we should be issuing and nobody seems to know what the rules actually are or where they are to be found.
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#4
#5
A red cross armband, to comply with the various Geneva protocols should be an armband. It should not be a brassard or a sewn on badge. It signifies that the wearer is protected by the applicable Geneva protocols and that he/she is not a belligerent (the God Squad also come under this) It means, that you are not a belligerent and that if you are captured you do not have the status of 'Prisoner of War' But are rather a 'detained person'. You also have a responsibility to minister to the wounded of the enemy should they come under your remit. Persons who have the protection of the Red Cross may carry weapons and be trained in the use of such weapons but only for self protection or the protection of the casualties/patients in their care. The rules do say that the armband should carry a valid unit stamp.

All the above applies to us, but not to the other side if they haven't signed up to the rules.

I am sure that the interweb thingy can give chapter and verse.
 
#6
It should be a band for 'all round vis', even though the cross is only visible from one side. In Herrick it is unlikley the Taliban would treat a captured medic, any different to anybody else unlucky enough to be in their grasp. Perhaps the cut down red cross is more of a identity thing on camps?

Never knew it was a unit stamp, as they are usually unreadable, but they are stamped.

Never heard of differing sizes.

How does that actually work, if a hospital (for example) was taken, would the medics be 'detained persons' and the drivers, Logs, AGC and RE chap be PoW?
 
#7
How does that actually work, if a hospital (for example) was taken, would the medics be 'detained persons' and the drivers, Logs, AGC and RE chap be PoW?
The medics, dentists, padres etc (with big crosses) would be 'detained persons'. TBH I am not really sure about the 'wee cross' people... However Google will probably know (I couldn't be arrsed looking it up)
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#8
I've done a bit more searching and this is what I've found on an ICRC site.

Convention (I) for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field. Geneva, 12 August 1949.


Article [Display Introduction] [Display Full text] [Display articles] [Display commentaries]




Chapter VII : The distinctive emblem


ARTICLE 40
The personnel designated in Article 24
and in Articles 26
and 27
shall wear, affixed to the left arm, a water-resistant armlet bearing the distinctive emblem, issued and stamped by the military authority....
Linky to the whole chapter.

So that's were the unit stamp thing comes from. The distinctive emblem is the red cross, crescent or crystal on a white background. The emblem must not touch the edge of the white background but there is no definition of size or different sizes indeed of what an armlet is or what colour it should be.

Unless some one out there knows otherwise.
 
#9
I've done a bit more searching and this is what I've found on an ICRC site.



Linky to the whole chapter.

So that's were the unit stamp thing comes from. The distinctive emblem is the red cross, crescent or crystal on a white background. The emblem must not touch the edge of the white background but there is no definition of size or different sizes indeed of what an armlet is or what colour it should be.

Unless some one out there knows otherwise.
Jolly well done old chap.............thread finished :eek:)
 
#10
Does anyone know what the rules are for the wearing of red cross emblems.
The IRC red cross isn't the same one as is used to identify military medical assets
 
#11
It should be a band for 'all round vis', even though the cross is only visible from one side. In Herrick it is unlikley the Taliban would treat a captured medic, any different to anybody else unlucky enough to be in their grasp. Perhaps the cut down red cross is more of a identity thing on camps?

Never knew it was a unit stamp, as they are usually unreadable, but they are stamped.

Never heard of differing sizes.

How does that actually work, if a hospital (for example) was taken, would the medics be 'detained persons' and the drivers, Logs, AGC and RE chap be PoW?
Yes. The detained person status is only given to medical and the clergy. The detained person is required to work in their capacity until no longer required, at which point they should be returned. Unlikely

Additionally, the personal weapon should be defensive, and not offensive, hence iron sights rather than SUSAT on personal weapons, and SMG rather than Rifle back "in the day"

As memory serves, the cross has a set size per use, ie personal, vehicles, tentage etc, but basically has the ratio of 5 squares. Any asset displaying the insignia should not be fired upon directly. Attached personel (ie drivers etc) wear the cross, but smaller (half size if memory serves). I don't recall what status they are afforded, but I have a feeling none on capture, but are to be regarded as medical assets in the field, ie they are part of the hospital in the same way a GS table is.

In current theatres, removal of the red cross by personal removes the protection it affords, however, it is very unlikely the protection would be respected even if it were worn.
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#12
Jolly well done old chap.............thread finished :eek:)
You're clearly far smarter than me because I still don't know what the rules that British medics must adhere to or or where they are laid down.
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#13
...Attached personel (ie drivers etc) wear the cross, but smaller (half size if memory serves)...
That's what we all believe are the rules but why? It doesn't say annoying about different sizes (that I can find) in the Geneva Convention.
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#15
Not really. It has the background to why we wear what we wear and what we should be conforming to but, unless I've missed something, it's not actually very specific on sizes etc.

I suppose it is possible that we don't have regulations beyond complying with the GCs and that units are re-inventing the wheel. I wonder if the current widespread practise of using a patch on a brassard actually complies with the GC rules. Putting a patch on the velcro blanking patch would seem to be just as in keeping and far more practical in PCS.
 
#16
If my memory is correct. I was part of a Fd Amb in Germany in the 90's, non RAMC cab badge. I wore the small red cross on a white armband and the AMS chaps wore the large one. They were all stamped (can’t remember by who) and we all had an additional ID card for operations (F107? or something like that). The AMS would be treated as retained personnel in the event of capture and not POW, not sure what our status would have been.

In regards to the vehicles if I remember correctly, it was required to be as large as possible depending on the size of the vehicle. On the 432's we painted the Red Cross on the front hatch, RHS on the NBC Box, LHS on the Exhaust Box and on one of the rear bins (some had one on each bin). Some had the whole mortar hatch painted as well. During Ops some also flew the Red Cross flag and during GW1 the red crescent was also displayed on the vehicles.

I'm sure that the CO used to go bananas when the armbands were not worn properly as he was adamant that it would affect status under the Geneva Convention. I'm sure he was right as he went high up in the AMS.

Hope that helps a bit.
 
#17
Somebody's already quoted Art. 24, which sets out the conditions for wearing the full-sized "distinctive sign" on an armlet. The bit about use of a miniature emblem is here:

ARTICLE 41
The personnel designated in Article 25 shall wear, but only while carrying out medical duties, a white armlet bearing in its centre the distinctive sign in miniature; the armlet shall be issued and stamped by the military authority.
Military identity documents to be carried by this type of personnel shall specify what special training they have received, the temporary character of the duties they are engaged upon, and their authority for wearing the armlet.
(taken from International Humanitarian Law - First 1949 Geneva Convention)

What constitutes "miniature" isn't laid down.

The "personnel designated in Article 25" are defined as follows:

ARTICLE 25
Members of the armed forces specially trained for employment, should the need arise, as hospital orderlies, nurses or auxiliary stretcher-bearers, in the search for or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded and sick shall likewise be respected and protected if they are carrying out these duties at the time when they come into contact with the enemy or fall into his hands.
This would certainly cover bandsmen (is it still the case that their wartime role is as stretcher bearers?) and the like. I'm not an expert on the Geneva Conventions (though I could put my paws on a few dozen by walking down the corridor and up the stairs!) but am fairly sure that no mention is made either of non-medical staff working in a medical facility, nor of "normal" personnel with extra first-aid training.

The only thing that gives a wearer "protection" under GC1 is an armlet bearing the emblem -- dinky little crosses velcro'd onto your PCS are not, technically, valid. My guess is that the armband not looking very ally is in fact deliberate -- it underlines the idea that this person is different, even though they're armed and wearing the same kit.

I suspect this comes down more to a dress regulations decision, to be taken by (perhaps) someone reasonably high up the food chain within the RAMC, than a real international humanitarian law question that my leagle-beagle colleagues could answer.
 
#18
Seems rather an estoric debate comsidering the people we are fighting about dont give shit about any rules
 

BuggerAll

LE
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#19
Seems rather an estoric debate comsidering the people we are fighting about dont give shit about any rules
Good thing we're not and never will be be involved in any other operations then and I'm not trying to debate the rules but find out what they are.
 

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