We might not like the Yanks but they do have some GOOD ideas

#1
I was reading an article in The Economist about how prisons in the UK are so overcrowded because they are soft as shite and, until sentencing policy changes to reflect BOTH deterrence AND punishment, they will carry on filling up with chavs, pikeys and scum who use them as a free Butlins break. There are a lot of threads here about about certain reprobates (the egg-throwing scumbag for instance) who spend theri whole life just jerking the system around and see it as one big laugh and a chance to network and it seems to be a particularly emotive issue here on ARRSE.

Well, if you have an hour or so, watch this 4OD documentary about how they deal with things over there.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/maximum-jail/4od#2930939

The guy doing 150 years for assault looked particularly hard done by!! And he was one of the lucky 5% who has a chance of dying on the outside providing he lives to the age of 90 and passes 3 MDTs a month!

The new 'supermax" prisons here in the UK have had a lot of bad press however, if we had just ONE (Slough would be a great venue - put a fence round it!) and started dishing out lifes with a 20 year minimum for some of the viscous scum prowling our streets, I think even brain dead morons like our egg-hurling friend might soon get the message.

And I'm a liberal!! What do other arrsers think?
 
#3
I like the Mayor in the US who has put the chav convicts into tented accomodation, issued them proper striped suits and set up chain gangs for area cleaning. The great benefit of his scheme is that it is low cost. ;)
 
#4
tearsbeforebedtime said:
It's not their fault, it's society that made them this way and is a reflection upon us all.

Or some such shite.
You're not in touchy, feely, pink and fluffy mode this morning are you? I can tell. :twisted:
 
#5
duffdike said:
I like the Mayor in the US who has put the chav convicts into tented accomodation, issued them proper striped suits and set up chain gangs for area cleaning. The great benefit of his scheme is that it is low cost. ;)
And he banned coffee and cigarettes. What a guy!!!
 
#6
chinooksdad said:
duffdike said:
I like the Mayor in the US who has put the chav convicts into tented accomodation, issued them proper striped suits and set up chain gangs for area cleaning. The great benefit of his scheme is that it is low cost. ;)
And he banned coffee and cigarettes. What a guy!!!
I'd vote for him!

:D

Rodney2q
 
#7
chinooksdad said:
duffdike said:
I like the Mayor in the US who has put the chav convicts into tented accomodation, issued them proper striped suits and set up chain gangs for area cleaning. The great benefit of his scheme is that it is low cost. ;)
And he banned coffee and cigarettes. What a guy!!!
The best bit was that he used the rules that the pink and fluffy brigade came up with for the benefit of the prisoners, coffee has no nutritional benefit and cigarettes are not the best for your health, the pink boxers were i am sure done for effect but did amuse me
 
#10
The problen though is that tough prisons are not a deterent unless the criminals believe they will get caught and sent there. The real problem in the UK is that we don't solve enough crime.
 
#11
maxi_77 said:
The problen though is that tough prisons are not a deterent unless the criminals believe they will get caught and sent there. The real problem in the UK is that we don't solve enough crime.
I think you're wrong. The police solve plenty of crimes, most of which earn about £60.00 a pop and may involve your licence, thus proving that crime does pay.
Not necessarily for the perpetrator though.
 
#13
Bouillabaisse said:
I like the Yanks. What have you got against them?
wot he said - tired of the anti-US schyte tbh.

Regarding soft treatment of criminals etc: it's as much of a contentious topic over there as here and has been for decades - eg the Death Wish films etc. Also, if you were to read about some of the previous records of death penalty cases, you'd wonder what on earth these people were doing outside of prison to commit the crimes which put them on death row, some crimes committed almost immediately after being paroled, or even on day release.
 
#14
maxi_77 said:
The problem though is that tough prisons are not a deterrent unless the criminals believe they will get caught and sent there.
The common factors for most low level crimes are (in no particular order),
Drugs such as heroin in its many forms and crack cocaine,
Alcohol,
NEET (Not in Employment Education or Training),
Low standard of education
Comes from "broken" families.

I'm not excusing anyone for this, but to fix the problem you need to attack the causes.
Most low level crimes will have two or more of the above factors, and the Defendants will genuinely not believe they will get caught, they can barely work out what they are going to eat tonight, let alone work out that if they shoplift to feed their drug habit they are likely to get caught.
 
#15
absquatulation said:
maxi_77 said:
The problem though is that tough prisons are not a deterrent unless the criminals believe they will get caught and sent there.
The common factors for most low level crimes are (in no particular order),
Drugs such as heroin in its many forms and crack cocaine,
Alcohol,
NEET (Not in Employment Education or Training),
Low standard of education
Comes from "broken" families.

I'm not excusing anyone for this, but to fix the problem you need to attack the causes.
Most low level crimes will have two or more of the above factors, and the Defendants will genuinely not believe they will get caught, they can barely work out what they are going to eat tonight, let alone work out that if they shoplift to feed their drug habit they are likely to get caught.
I do not dispute your causes, but I would suggest that the majority are not incapable of assessing risk, rather they are well aware of the risk and know that firstly detection is not by any means certain, secondly they are well aware that is is quite easy to disuade witnesses from testifying through the threat of violence, and finally if by some mistake you do end up in court the chances of a custodial sentnce are slim.
 
#16
maxi_77 said:
absquatulation said:
maxi_77 said:
The problem though is that tough prisons are not a deterrent unless the criminals believe they will get caught and sent there.
The common factors for most low level crimes are (in no particular order),
Drugs such as heroin in its many forms and crack cocaine,
Alcohol,
NEET (Not in Employment Education or Training),
Low standard of education
Comes from "broken" families.

I'm not excusing anyone for this, but to fix the problem you need to attack the causes.
Most low level crimes will have two or more of the above factors, and the Defendants will genuinely not believe they will get caught, they can barely work out what they are going to eat tonight, let alone work out that if they shoplift to feed their drug habit they are likely to get caught.
I do not dispute your causes, but I would suggest that the majority are not incapable of assessing risk, rather they are well aware of the risk and know that firstly detection is not by any means certain, secondly they are well aware that is is quite easy to dissuade witnesses from testifying through the threat of violence, and finally if by some mistake you do end up in court the chances of a custodial sentence are slim.
From the [un]happy bunnies I see in court, sometimes I'm surprised if they could find their own arse with both hands and a torch, let alone be able to assess any risk.
I agree that once they have found themselves in the frame for something, then as a problem solving method they will frequently attempt to harass witnesses - but this again is the result of low understanding of what is going on.
And finally, when in court, the court "has to have regard to" the guidance decried by the government. I note that later this year the government wants to change "has to have regard to" to "have to follow" the guidance.

Most magistrates courts would dearly love to impose much severer sentences, but a maximum 6 month sentence, becomes 3 months, less 18 days early release, unless of course when that date is a weekend when it is brought back to the previous Friday. ...
 
#17
Personally I'd opt for the zero-tolerance justice as dispensed by such places as Singapore; a gentle caning for lower level anti-social behaviour, working upwards depending on the circumstances of the offence. Saw a vid of some miscreant getting a walloping; once the cheeks of his arse had split open after several lashes and he'd passed out from the pain I got the impression that he wasn't going to be a Prolific Perpetual Offender.
Catching crims here isn't the problem, it's the failings in the court system.
 
#18
Gubmint_Agent said:
Catching crims here isn't the problem, it's the failings in the court system.
Catching crims, or rather failing to, is the primary reason we have so much crime. Everyone thinks (actually knows) they will almost certainly get away with it...

msr
 
#19
msr said:
Gubmint_Agent said:
Catching crims here isn't the problem, it's the failings in the court system.
Catching crims, or rather failing to, is the primary reason we have so much crime. Everyone thinks (actually knows) they will almost certainly get away with it...

msr
Maybe, but IMO the reason "everyone thinks... they will almost certainly get away with it" is because a conditional discharge or a community supervision order is not actually either a punishment or a deterrent, even if they are unlucky enough to get caught.
 
#20
Predictably the Obama thugs are going after this sheriff for being too tough on his constituents.
Arizona criminals find jail too in-'tents'
jail.
Arpaio has dramatically cut prison costs since becoming sheriff .

MARICOPA COUNTY, Arizona (CNN) -- The tent city looks like a military camp in the desert, with thick canvas sleeping quarters spreading out in a remote area of Arizona.

The inhabitants, however, are not soldiers, but residents of an unusual, some say brutal, prison run by legendary lawman Joe Arpaio, called the toughest sheriff in the West.

For the Maricopa County sheriff, who opened the nation's largest tent prison in 1993, saving taxpayer pennies matters more than comforting convicted felons.

"We took away coffee, that saved $150,000 a year. Why do you need coffee in jail?" says Arpaio, patrolling the dusty, barren grounds. "Switched to bologna sandwiches, that saved half a million dollars a year."

Arpaio makes inmates pay for their meals, which some say are worse than those for the guard dogs. Canines eat $1.10 worth of food a day, the inmate 90 cents, the sheriff says. "I'm very proud of that too."

Critics rail against harsh conditions in the prison, where temperatures can top 100 degrees.

"We still have rights, but they act like we're scum," one inmate complains.

Adds Eleanor Eisenberg of the ACLU: "Sheriff Arpaio has conditions in his jail that are inhumane, and he's proud of it."

Arpaio boasts of his chain gangs for men and women, which "contribute thousands of dollars of free labor to taxpayers each month," according to his Web site.
underwear
Sheriff Arpaio requires inmates to wear striped uniforms and pink underwear

Pink underwear and bedtime stories

Inmates follow strict fashion and lifestyle guidelines. They are forced to wear old-fashioned prison stripes and pink underwear. Prohibited items include cigarettes, adult magazines, hot lunches and television -- except for his bedtime story reading, a self-styled literacy program broadcast nightly to the inmates.

The sheriff, who spent more than 25 years in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, including a stint as a special agent in Turkey, has taken justice to rare extremes in other areas as well.

He has the nation's largest group of volunteer law enforcers, according to his Web site. More than 2,500 people are in his "posse," who go after prostitutes, graffiti artists and criminals at shopping malls.

Although Arpaio has lowered the prison budget, his unorthodox prison management style has led to some high legal expenses. The country has been hit with hundreds of inmate-related lawsuits, and ordered to pay millions in legal damages. Recent cases include:

In January, the county settled a wrongful-death suit filed by the family of Scott Norberg for $8.5 million. He died, reportedly of asphyxiation, as he struggled with prison guards in 1996.
inmate
The inmates live in tents in a sparse environment without air conditioning

In April, a jury awarded $1.5 million to an inmate denied medical treatment for a perforated ulcer. Tim Griffin, arrested for driving with a suspended license, required several surgeries for the perforated ulcer.

Another former inmate suing Arpaio, Richard Post, a paraplegic, claims guards treated him brutally and caused spinal cord damage.

Arpaio, who has also settled a civil suit with the U.S. Department of Justice over jail conditions, brushes off charges of brutality.

"That's garbage. Look at my officers. We run the safest jail system in the U.S.," he said.

Arpaio is among the state's most popular office-holders. He enjoys an 85 percent approval rating among voters in the county, which at 9,200 square miles is larger than some states, and includes the city of Phoenix.

Even some inmates treat him like a celebrity. As the sheriff stands in a group of female prisoners, one presents a legal pad.

"You want an autograph? What you got here? What's your name?" he asks.

On another occasion, a male prisoner, a look of anger on his face, tries to talk to the sheriff, who quickly interrupts:

"You have been convicted. You're doing your time. Do your time and shut your mouth and do what you have to do."
http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/
 

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