"We didn't win the Second World War" - Peter Hitchens

This by and large the General public seems blissfully unaware that the lefts hands are just as dirty as the rights. More than anything This ignorance helps perpetuate the Vote Labour good vote others you must be a nasty person mentality -
The number of individuals I know who have blocked friends and associates they've known for years because and I quote they are nasty tory voting twats etc. The attitude is dont support Corbyn - you've been brain washed by the right wing media - not voting Labour - you are scum who hates the poor.
Even elements of the left have said this is a problem now


I take your point but you need to bear in mind that the Tories really are twats. Nobody’s making that up; it’s true.
 
The U.K. went to war in 3D September 1939 to restore the sovereignty and the democratically elected government of Poland. By 8th May 1945 the UK had utterly failed to do so. Now there was no way after losing do many lives, beggaring ourselves and the expenditure of so much courage determination and bravery could failure be admitted. Therefore the war aim goal posts were moved to defearting Nazism and Hitler. Today we call this mission creep. Changing an aim that was not achieved to something that was. An example would be Saddam's WMD that never existed into restoring democracy to Iraq.
We asked them (along with France) to indicate that they were prepared to remove their troops from Poland by 11am and if they didn’t, a state of war would exist between us. Come 11.15am, Chamberlain said no such undertaking was received and the rest is history.

Poland wasn’t a democracy and hadn’t been since 1926. We never promised to restore their sovereignty according to Chamberlain’s speech. Not least because they hadn’t lost it at the time:
BBC - Archive - WWII: Outbreak - The Transcript of Neville Chamberlain's Declaration of war
"This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us.

I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that
consequently this country is at war with Germany.

You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed. Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done and that would have been more successful.

Up to the very last it would have been quite possible to have arranged a peaceful and honourable settlement between Germany and Poland, but Hitler would not have it.

He had evidently made up his mind to attack Poland whatever happened, and
although He now says he put forward reasonable proposals which were rejected by the Poles, that is not a true statement. The proposals were never shown to the Poles, nor to us, and, although they were announced in a German broadcast on Thursday night, Hitler did not wait to hear comments on them, but ordered his troops to cross the Polish frontier. His action shows convincingly that there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.

We and France are today, in fulfilment of our obligations, going to the aid of
Poland, who is so bravely resisting this wicked and unprovoked attack on her
people. We have a clear conscience. We have done all that any country could do to establish peace. The situation in which no word given by Germany's ruler could be trusted and no people or country could feel themselves safe has become intolerable. And now that we have resolved to finish it, I know that you will all play your part with calmness and courage.

At such a moment as this the assurances of support that we have received from the Empire are a source of profound encouragement to us.

The Government have made plans under which it will be possible to carry on the work of the nation in the days of stress and strain that may be ahead. But these plans need your help. You may be taking your part in the fighting services or as a volunteer in one of the branches of Civil Defence. If so you will report for duty in accordance with the instructions you have received. You may be engaged in work essential to the prosecution of war for the maintenance of the life of the people - in factories, in transport, in public utility concerns, or in the supply of other necessaries of life. If so, it is of vital importance that you should carry on with your jobs.

Now may God bless you all. May He defend the right. It is the evil things that we shall be fighting against - brute force, bad faith, injustice, oppression and
persecution - and against them I am certain that the right will prevail."
 
The war aim was always the defeat of the Hitlers regime - that didnt change (until 7/12/1941 when the Japanese were added to the list).
To give one example - William Strang (Assistant Undersecretary of State at the Foreign Office) in October 1939.

`We are fighting to preserve our position in the world against the German challenge, to establish peace and
freedom in Europe and to safeguard Western civilisation. It is less dangerous in the immediate future for western Europe that Russia should displace Germany in eastern Europe than that Germany should maintain herself.' (National Archives, FO 371/230)​
 
No it didn't

For starters at the point war was declared by the UK and France Poland was still up and fighting - nobody foresaw its collapse (or indeed the massive stab in the back) - hardly restoring a nations sovereignty when said nation appears to be doing all right at this point.

Secondly, as has been done to death every time the Britain betrayed Poland trop is uttered, Britain agreed to declare war - Britain did not promise military aid to Poland nor (despite the KGBs persistent dis info*) was Poland expecting it.
Polish Generals being a little more au fait with Geography and maps than, todays crop of Britain s fault / bad / betrayal / started it revisionists were more than aware they were on their own - which is why they tried to cultivate a soviet alliance as well.
The only direct action promised was an invasion of Germany by France - what followed was a very lack lustre affair - see previous re French defensive minded doctrine.

The war aim was always the defeat of the Hitlers regime - that didnt change (until 7/12/1941 when the Japanese were added to the list).

Of course Poland was betrayed post war when it was occupied by the Soviet union with nary a peep from the Western Allies - but a lot of that is FDR placing to much faith in Stalins word and to little in Churchills assessment of their (Western allies and Soviet) relationship

*Used to justify the Soviet assistance in saving half of Poland from German occupation or what the rest of the world calls the soviet Invasion.
Here is a copy of what appears to be the Anglo-Polish August 1939 defence treaty: Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland-London (1939) - Wikisource, the free online library

Britain's commitments under the treaty were as follows:
Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power.
The rest of the treaty is just variations on and clarifications of that.

A secret protocol to the treaty stated that "a European Power" in the above meant Germany. If any European Power other than Germany were to attack either party, they were only obliged to mutually consult on it. That would appear to cover the Soviet Union.
1. (a) By the expression "a European Power" employed in the Agreement is to be understood Germany. (b) In the event of action within the meaning of Article 1 or 2 of the Agreement by a European Power other than Germany, the Contracting Parties will consult together on the measures to be taken in common.
There appears to be nothing in the treaty which obligated Britain to any specific course of action with respect to how or when "all the support and assistance in its power" would be rendered. Britain did declare war on Germany and did fight on to the end until Germany was defeated.
 
A secret protocol to the treaty stated that "a European Power" in the above meant Germany. If any European Power other than Germany were to attack either party, they were only obliged to mutually consult on it. That would appear to cover the Soviet Union.
.
And of course explains why @KGB_resident the UK wasn't obliged to declare war on Russia and why the failure to do so wasn't a betrayal. Further demonstrating that Soviet lies viz ah we only attacked and signed a secret accord with Germany to divvy up Poland because the British betrayed them and we tried to save them are lies
 

Hippohunter

On ROPS
On ROPs
Lindermyer it is you that are wrong. The U.K. had a treaty to preserve the sovereignty of Poland and that is why we declared war on Germany at 10:00 03/09/39. Of course defeating nazism and Hitler was part of the process but not the end game which was never achieved.
 
Lindermyer it is you that are wrong. The U.K. had a treaty to preserve the sovereignty of Poland and that is why we declared war on Germany at 10:00 03/09/39. Of course defeating nazism and Hitler was part of the process but not the end game which was never achieved.
Yes we did have a treaty and Arrse has discussed the terms (several times)

However You stated we declared war to RESTORE Polish sovereignty and Democracy and that when we failed we changed the war aims to defeating Germany

I (and several others) have pointed out that We declared war before* Poland even looked like loosing and the war aim was always defeat of Germany. Its also been pointed out Poland wasn't a democracy either.

As to the argument about ensuring Polands sovereignty against German agression - well even if that were the case We (the UK) stayed in the war and fought to the End.
Germany was defeated and Poland liberated. So by that definition even if you see saving Poland from Nazi Germany as a war aim - it was in fact achieved, it just took a while.


Edit it has to be remembered Britain was never supposed to be more than a supporting role in the European land war - that it was until very late 44 or early 45 main effort in the West (and main effort full stop for the year or so between Dunkirk and Barbarrossa . Britain had to build an Army from almost nothing every one else** regardless of performance started with large standing Armies to build upon, thus once France fell it was never going to be a quick or easy war.
Doubly so since it wrecked the Allied Naval strategy and at a stroke doubled the Uboat threat

The only reason its argued that aim wasn't achieved is because one of the allied powers decided on a bit of post war empire building, with a side order of retribution and lets be honest a huge dollop of Paranoia and a desire to see a series of Buffer states between It and Germany.


*Which is why I stated you were incorrect - Cant restore something that hasn't been lost

**Stand fast the Spams who had contrived to be the weakest land power on Earth (ok 2nd weakest if you include Iceland - but it was a close call) prior to 1941.
 
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Lindermyer it is you that are wrong. The U.K. had a treaty to preserve the sovereignty of Poland and that is why we declared war on Germany at 10:00 03/09/39. Of course defeating nazism and Hitler was part of the process but not the end game which was never achieved.
11.15 Chamberlain addresses the Country. They intend to withdraw their forces by 11 am or a state of war will exist.
 
Lindermyer it is you that are wrong. The U.K. had a treaty to preserve the sovereignty of Poland and that is why we declared war on Germany at 10:00 03/09/39. Of course defeating nazism and Hitler was part of the process but not the end game which was never achieved.

The Treaty only offered mutual assistance. It specifically did not guarantee either territorial integrity or sovereignty, and not even a specific commitment to fight for the territorial integrity of either country.
 
Im assuming that's either a speech made at 11.15 stating the terms that were presented or a speech detailing the terms being presented and the 11 am is German / Poland time
He made the speech at 11.15 am UK time (presumably BST or Alpha eg 031115A SEP 39). The Ambo has said that unless we hear you are prepared to withdraw your troops by 11 am, a state of war will exist. No such undertaking was given.

I assume with the time difference, we’d given Hitler until 12.00 midday CET to indicate he would withdraw his troops. Which seems a reasonable time to go for:
BBC - Archive - WWII: Outbreak - The Transcript of Neville Chamberlain's Declaration of war
This document is the script of Neville Chamberlain's broadcast to the nation on 3 September 1939, stating that Britain had declared war on Germany. It was broadcast on BBC radio from Downing Street at 11.15am, shortly after Germany failed to agree to withdraw its troops from Poland. In his speech, Chamberlain reiterates his attempts to gain a peaceful solution and counters Hitler's claims that Poland had rejected a settlement. Finally, he offers encouragement to the British people in defending their country for a just cause. Listen to the recording of this speech
E2A: My earlier link to the 'deal' between Poland and the UK meaning Germany
 
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He made the speech at 11.15 am UK time (presumably BST or Alpha eg 031115A SEP 39). The Ambo has said that unless we hear you are prepared to withdraw your troops by 11 am, a state of war will exist. No such undertaking was given.

I assume with the time difference, we’d given Hitler until 12.00 midday CET to indicate he would withdraw his troops. Which seems a reasonable time to go for:
BBC - Archive - WWII: Outbreak - The Transcript of Neville Chamberlain's Declaration of war
That's how I took it

Im a bit slow today not firing on all 4 cylinders
 

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