We are far too sentimental about ‘our boys’

#2
I've not got the time to pick the bones out of that one. I was beginning to agree with him, then he went and spoiled it. The excessive sentimentality is a good point, but comparing the deaths to an area of industry is a bit weak. His understanding of what is happening there and the wider, non-military elements, is rather porous to say the least.
 
#3
Written on the front line in .........er Wapping. Get out there Mr Pariss then gob off about just a job, or ask your war correspondent colleagues who've done something slightly more dangerous that Have I Got News For You., what they feel about your remarks.
 
#4
He isn't comparing the same death rates: deaths on operations are not the totality of deaths in service. For 2007, there was 204 (72 per 100,000).

Did he choose agricultural work because it sounds gentle, or because the only one which came close to the military's rate is a sector which causes concern because of its extremely high suicide rate?
 
#6
I think he's got a fair point, people are too sentimental about 'our boys'. This recent trend of making a fetish of dead soldiers isn't healthy and obscures important questions about Afghanistan and the national interest. The British Army is a professional force made up of adults who make the choice to be in it.
 
#8
Temple said:
I think he's got a fair point, people are too sentimental about 'our boys'. This recent trend of making a fetish of dead soldiers isn't healthy and obscures important questions about Afghanistan and the national interest. The British Army is a professional force made up of adults who make the choice to be in it.
Then you, as he does, miss the point. Yes soldiers are paid, if you think they're well paid then have a look at how much PSCs pay grunts to give you some idea of what the 'going rate' is. Soldiers may be paid but who joined up to endure the living conditions of an FOB, the sleep deprivation and days on patrol though every type of terrain, that all without even engaging the enemy, sometimes. Of course being uncomfortable doesn't make you a hero, no one claims it does but the esteem with which the Public hold the soldier makes it bearable
To say that the soldier is a professional is true, but so are our firefighters, our police and just about anyone who takes on a difficult and dangerous job. Most will take such a job on for a whole host of reasons, 'duty' the feeling that they should contribute, that they can make a difference are high on most soldier's priorities rather than £20k a year and live in extreme physical hardship for most of your year if on ops. To fail to recognise the soldier who loses his life going to defuse an IED is to fail to recognise the police officer who is swept to his death when a bridge collapses or the firefighter who is killed when a building he was in collapses. They are paid for their efforts, does that negate the courage and dedication required to do those jobs?
Whereas you may not accept the politics and the reasons for being in Afghanistan that does not mean that the men and women who risk their life, physical or mental health to carry out this Country's Foreign Policy don't carry out a task and in a manner that mere money can only offer poor recompense for. You cannot count loyalty and dedication in monetary terms and you cannot compensate courage.
Whilst we're on about courage let's not forget the families who are left behind, who put on the bravest of brave faces and spend 6 months dreading the sound of the doorbell. Who get no compensation, no salary, no Queen's shilling. Who just stay at home and support and keep the home fires burning. We no longer live in the world of the amateur, even our Olympic athletes are paid these days, the mark of true courage and dedication is not a refusal to accept money, but how can you truly compensate a Mum who's lost her boy or girl, a wife or husband left alone at a tender age or the children who will never truly know their parent.
Blame the politicians but do not blame the myriad men and women of the Services and those that support the Services, because what they do is beyond price.
 
#9
I tink you're the one missing the point. I didn't mention pay, PSCs are private companies they pay the market rate for their job so what they pay is irrelevant (not to mention that soldiers have a lot more back up and fringe benefits). I don't really see for that matter what the point of the rest of your post was about, I know soldiers take on the job for lots of reasons (as does anyone), perhaps more relevant is that they make that decision of their own free will, portraying them as unwitting victims of circumstances far beyond their control is a bit patronising.
 
#10
Parris is basically a good journalist, but what he and a lot of others fail to understand that a liberal democracy can no more have soldiers who pick and choose conflicts than it can have cops who set themselves up as judge and jury, trying and punishing people. His argument is that WW2 was straightforwardly and unambiguously a "good" war of survival, and current operations aren't. Christ, the Cabinet was split at the outset of WW2...many thought we could reach an accomodation with Germany. A soldier says i) this is a representative democracy, ii) the use of force is sometimes necessary, iii) there will never be unanimity as to the use of force, iv) representatives will have to decide when to use force, v) someone needs to accept that they will operationalise that decision regardless of what it is.

If nobody places themselves under the sovereign's command you don't have a society at all - no cops, no soldiers, no civil servants..............

Parris needs to read Hobbes's Leviathan. The only way the many can become one is to submit all their wills to one will. That creates the possibility of peace and decency, and so is a moral act.
 
#11
"How blessed is he who for his country dies"

Jonathan Swift
 
#12
Temple said:
I think he's got a fair point, people are too sentimental about 'our boys'. This recent trend of making a fetish of dead soldiers isn't healthy and obscures important questions about Afghanistan and the national interest. The British Army is a professional force made up of adults who make the choice to be in it.
I agree. The country is slowly turning into a bunch of fannies. You takes the Queens shilling, you takes your chances. Get over it.
 
#14
he makes a living being a prick
 
#15
Who. me or Swift, who was a religious nutter who lived in our old base at the Deanery in Clougher
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#16
There's been comments made by the spakker Rammel in response to the mother of the deceased soldier on Question Time the other night that really, really grips my sh!t.

When asked about comparative pay rates for soldiers, he (and others) come out with a bunch of fatuous bullsh!t about "No amount of money is adequate compensation for the job they do or the risks they take" - yes, that's true, but when you hide behind such a statement to avoid giving ANY comparative pay rate to the Police or Fire Service, then it stinks of what it is. Bullsh!t that might work on some people, but by and large, the rest will be infuriated.

The statement should go along the lines of "No amount of pay is worth what these people do, however, we appreciate that they deserve a good deal more considering the arduous, dangerous work they do, and the very long hours (at times, weeks without pause) they do it for, thus, we will pay them an hourly rate when active that is equal to or more than equivalent ranks in the police or fire services, and on top of that, a retainer for all the remaining hours when they are not able to be at home in their own beds - ie: in barracks or bases."

Not only does a fireman get more money than a squaddie, if a fireman has to stay on fire services premises overnight, he gets extra money for it, and he'd want (and get) a good deal more if he had to stay in a hole in the ground rather than on a shiny £10,000 reclining chair.

That is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work Rammel; it has equivalence with the civilian services. All the time the 'our boys' don't get this, you are ripping them off.
 
#17
I agree, far too much emphasis on the fluffy-Bunny side of things and not enough acknowledgement of the fact that it's professionals doing their job. This constant harping-on about casualties, though for the most part well-intentioned, will ultimately prove damaging to morale, look at the effect it's having on Civpop for a start!
Of course, if our mind-bogglingly useless Government, led respectively by a grinning snake-oil salesman and an autistic Lefty half-wit, had bothered to fund and equip the Forces properly in the first place, particulary in the areas of hospitals and helicopters, there would be less room for all this mawkish sentimentality and organised breast-beating. :x
 
#18
But a fireman can put his life at risk everyday, year in year out. A soldier only puts his life at risk roughly 6 months in 2-3 years on average. Even then, most soldiers don't really put their lives at risk. It's only a certain few if we're honest. There are even infantry units that haven't even deployed once on a Herrick tour yet.

I think many soldiers like the attention that they're somehow war heroes in the public eye when in fact most are not.
 
#19
Fallschirmjager said:
But a fireman can put his life at risk everyday, year in year out. A soldier only puts his life at risk roughly 6 months in 2-3 years on average. Even then, most soldiers don't really put their lives at risk. It's only a certain few if we're honest. There are even infantry units that haven't even deployed once on a Herrick tour yet.

I think many soldiers like the attention that they're somehow war heroes in the public eye when in fact most are not.
I agree with most of what you stated there apart from the fireman bit. A fireman takes very calculated risks and does not have incoming rounds and projectiles coming in at him/her.
 
#20
Cabana said:
I agree with most of what you stated there apart from the fireman bit. A fireman takes very calculated risks and does not have incoming rounds and projectiles coming in at him/her.
Neither do most soldiers, sailors and airmen.
 

Similar threads


Latest Threads

Top