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Was Faye Turney a liability?

#1
Sensible answers/ comment please

1. Did the presence of a woman in the boarding party cause the rest of the sailors and marines to back down quicker than they would have otherwise?

2. Did the presence of a woman among the prisoners cause Iran to handle the situation any differently to how they would otherwise?

3. Did the presence of a woman among the prisoners cause the British government to handle the crisis any differently to how they otherwise might?

4. So What? (Are there any conclusions/ lessons that we can apply to future operations?)
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#2
No, I think the presence of them bigger guns than you would have had more to do with it.
 
#5
Biscuits_AB said:
No, I think the presence of them bigger guns than you would have had more to do with it.
Agreed - although when they found they had captured a female it may have become an unexpected bonus. The Iranians aren't stupid.

I suspect:

Lack of bigger and more guns.

Lack of more direct and indirect support.

Lack of more robust ROE (a guess - I don't know as I haven't seen them)

are all contributary factors.

But we can only guess at the Iranians intentions. We don't know. What is definite is that we came second - particularly with the whole fiasco over selling stories.
 
#6
So the consensus seems to be that the patrol would have been nabbed either way. And most likely still without a firefight (I know I wouldn't be too keen on those odds) Even if the presence of a female discouraged the Brit IC from putting rounds down then that decision saved a lot of needless bloodshed and an even bigger incident. So all good so far..

The other question is: Did the presence of Turney in the hostage group serve to dissolve what little spine TB has got?

It grips my shit that Turney was elevated by the press to the position of "most important hostage" purely because she was a mother. It was like the other 14 didn't exist. Some papers have even called her the leader of the group.
 
#8
wessex_warrior said:
but it grips my shit that Turney was elevated by the press to the position of "most important hostage" purely because she was a mother. It was like the other 14 didn't exist.
You poor Sun reading Ok Mag loving tart! They couldn't give a toss about her or her story. wake up and smell the coffee sunshine, it's about selling rags to a chav and celebrity loving public!
 
#9
FaceLikeAPingPongBall said:
wessex_warrior said:
but it grips my shit that Turney was elevated by the press to the position of "most important hostage" purely because she was a mother. It was like the other 14 didn't exist.
You poor Sun reading Ok Mag loving tart! They couldn't give a toss about her or her story. wake up and smell the coffee sunshine, it's about selling rags to a chav and celebrity loving public!
easy there mate, there's no need to get personal. Telegraph and Times are my organs of choice. (apart from the obvious)
 
#11
wessex_warrior said:
Sensible answers/ comment please

1. Did the presence of a woman in the boarding party cause the rest of the sailors and marines to back down quicker than they would have otherwise?

We don't know, and may never fully know. But it's perfectly possible.

2. Did the presence of a woman among the prisoners cause Iran to handle the situation any differently to how they would otherwise?

Yes, obviously, because of the very different status of women in Iranian society.

3. Did the presence of a woman among the prisoners cause the British government to handle the crisis any differently to how they otherwise might?

Yes - partly because of the predictable Iranian attitude, and partly because UK public opinion would expect a different response.

4. So What? (Are there any conclusions/ lessons that we can apply to future operations?)
Not clear, from available evidence. But those arguing for the exclusion of women from combat or potential combat situations have had their arguments strengthened by this episode.

We may know a lot more when the BOI reports - if it does so publicly in any detail.

Apologies for this badly laid-out post . . .
 
#12
I don't think she was a liability per se and I still have confidence that most of the women in the armed forces are great, however watching the TV footage and listening to her whining she seems, on first impression, to be a rather pitiful NCO. But, she's not alone, the blokes were just as bad. The officers seemed to opt for decision by committee every step of the way instead of taking command. The bleeding-heart gut-wrenching :roll: drama about Faye not being able to see her daughter for 13 days was totally bogus anyway, as she was already away at sea! Grrrr.... The poor (soon to be rich) girl has been very poorly advised by our nice media ops people. She will be ostracised by her ship-mates but that's the nature of the beast, once you take The Scum's 60 pieces of silver, there's no way you'll regain the respect of your colleagues on minimum wage. I do feel sorry for her, but at least she'll have enough money for liposuction, one of them face transplants and a bit of dental work, as well as some speech therapy. :D
 
#13
Legion_n_aire said:
The presence of Faye may have deterred the nervous Iranians from firing. A cultural taboo thing. She may have saved them all.
Quite, the interesting thing about this is that if you scratch the surface both pro and anti- female-in-front-line arguments can easily be made. I do think that the presence of Faye on that RiB made it easy for the tabloids to work up the emotions of the great unwashed and that in turn weakened what little resolve TB and pals had to stand up to the Iranians.
 
#14
Legion_n_aire said:
The presence of Faye may have deterred the nervous Iranians from firing. A cultural taboo thing. She may have saved them all.
That presumes a predisposition towards firing first, on the part of the IRG, and there are no grounds for assuming that.

14 (i.e. excluding FT) live detainees were worth infinitely more to them for attempted propaganda purposes than the contents of 14 body-bags, which would have brought unequivocal international condemnation on Teheran, (excluding a few irredeemably anti-Allies nations, of course).
 
#15
No, the presence of Turney did not deter the Iranians from anything - they like stoning and hanging women in Iran for the smallest misdemeanors - they saw that Turney would be an ace card to have as WE have a moral issue with females - not the Iranians!!!
 
#16
PoisonDwarf said:
I don't think she was a liability per se and I still have confidence that most of the women in the armed forces are great, however watching the TV footage and listening to her whining she seems, on first impression, to be a rather pitiful NCO. But, she's not alone, the blokes were just as bad. The officers seemed to opt for decision by committee every step of the way instead of taking command. The bleeding-heart gut-wrenching :roll: drama about Faye not being able to see her daughter for 13 days was totally bogus anyway, as she was already away at sea! Grrrr.... The poor (soon to be rich) girl has been very poorly advised by our nice media ops people. She will be ostracised by her ship-mates but that's the nature of the beast, once you take The Scum's 60 pieces of silver, there's no way you'll regain the respect of your colleagues on minimum wage. I do feel sorry for her, but at least she'll have enough money for liposuction, one of them face transplants and a bit of dental work, as well as some speech therapy. :D
Couldn't agree more, the only real question is: will £100,000 be enough to make a silk purse from that particular sow's ear?
 
#17
me n bee said:
No, the presence of Turney did not deter the Iranians from anything - they like stoning and hanging women in Iran for the smallest misdemeanors - they saw that Turney would be an ace card to have as WE have a moral issue with females - not the Iranians!!!
Is that a fact? I knew the taliban did that sort of thing. Bunch of savages.
 
#18
wessex_warrior said:
Legion_n_aire said:
The presence of Faye may have deterred the nervous Iranians from firing. A cultural taboo thing. She may have saved them all.
Quite, the interesting thing about this is that if you scratch the surface both pro and anti- female-in-front-line arguments can easily be made. I do think that the presence of Faye on that RiB made it easy for the tabloids to work up the emotions of the great unwashed and that in turn weakened what little resolve TB and pals had to stand up to the Iranians.
You're assuming that "standing up to the Iranians" was therefore the best alternative posture, in the absence of FT.

How, exactly, would a more aggressive UK stance have achieved the govt.'s clear objective sooner? Or more effectively, for international consumption?

HMG resorted to diplomacy in the first instance, which is normal procedure, and very well worth doing if the alternative is the outbreak of a war on yet another front.

And all the signs are that diplomacy achieved exactly what the UK wanted, with no loss of face to us - except the massive, self-inflicted LOF we're now suffering as a result of this absurd MoD stop-go attitude to service personnel selling their stories. We seem to have squandered a considerable initial advantage, and now look foolish to everyone.
 
#19
The Iranians have sharia law - that law can be seen as

1 - a woman gets raped - the courts look and say "she was flounting, the man couldn't resist therefore she is guilty!!".

2 - men can say to a court that there wife is having an affair - the woman has 24 hours to prove she isn't!!!

The punishment to a 14 year old girl convicted of rape was death by hanging - for being a victim.....

Get my point??!!
 
#20
wessex_warrior said:
PoisonDwarf said:
I don't think she was a liability per se and I still have confidence that most of the women in the armed forces are great, however watching the TV footage and listening to her whining she seems, on first impression, to be a rather pitiful NCO. But, she's not alone, the blokes were just as bad. The officers seemed to opt for decision by committee every step of the way instead of taking command. The bleeding-heart gut-wrenching :roll: drama about Faye not being able to see her daughter for 13 days was totally bogus anyway, as she was already away at sea! Grrrr.... The poor (soon to be rich) girl has been very poorly advised by our nice media ops people. She will be ostracised by her ship-mates but that's the nature of the beast, once you take The Scum's 60 pieces of silver, there's no way you'll regain the respect of your colleagues on minimum wage. I do feel sorry for her, but at least she'll have enough money for liposuction, one of them face transplants and a bit of dental work, as well as some speech therapy. :D
Couldn't agree more, the only real question is: will £100,000 be enough to make a silk purse from that particular sow's ear?
Less the £40 k to the taxman.
Less the 'percentage' she is donating to the ship's charity (she omitted to state which percentage, but just 1% is £1,000).

So, no chance, the sow's ear conversion therapy is a definate non starter.
 

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