Warrior AFV in Afghanistan

#1
Did anyone read the reports at the weekend about the (supposed) massive detterent effect of Warriors in Afghanistan (apologies if someone has raised it). I think it was in the Scotsman. The gist of it was that with a Warrior standing in a visible position commanding the ground the Talibs didn't even approach having had bad experiences before.

Now you'd think that a cannon shell just couldn't be as effective as something bigger with a decent amount of explosive, but here's a thought. I went to a massive firepower demo years ago and of all the stuff fired Rarden was the most frightening. Really, really vicious and accurate. Maybe the "high velocity finger of God" effect knocks the stuffing out of people even if the actual lethality is lower?
 
#2
gobbyidiot said:
Did anyone read the reports at the weekend about the (supposed) massive detterent effect of Warriors in Afghanistan (apologies if someone has raised it). I think it was in the Scotsman. The gist of it was that with a Warrior standing in a visible position commanding the ground the Talibs didn't even approach having had bad experiences before.

Now you'd think that a cannon shell just couldn't be as effective as something bigger with a decent amount of explosive, but here's a thought. I went to a massive firepower demo years ago and of all the stuff fired Rarden was the most frightening. Really, really vicious and accurate. Maybe the "high velocity finger of God" effect knocks the stuffing out of people even if the actual lethality is lower?
On the MoD website as well, plus here:

http://defenceoftherealm.blogspot.com/2007/10/right-kit-for-job.html
 
#3
So, sensibly applied, armoured warfare works.
Perhaps if a little less was spent on turning every fcuker into Reasonably Special Forces with pink-panther-alikes?
 
#4
Horses for courses, PE4. WR is excellent, WMIK is too. Having both options in your toybox makes sense. comparison of two different systems always is tricky.
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#5
gobbyidiot said:
Did anyone read the reports at the weekend about the (supposed) massive detterent effect of Warriors in Afghanistan (apologies if someone has raised it). I think it was in the Scotsman. The gist of it was that with a Warrior standing in a visible position commanding the ground the Talibs didn't even approach having had bad experiences before.

Now you'd think that a cannon shell just couldn't be as effective as something bigger with a decent amount of explosive, but here's a thought. I went to a massive firepower demo years ago and of all the stuff fired Rarden was the most frightening. Really, really vicious and accurate. Maybe the "high velocity finger of God" effect knocks the stuffing out of people even if the actual lethality is lower?
Do you mean this:

THOUGH the troops are always poised for a mortar or rocket attack, their patrols find ways of passing the time in the languid afternoon heat - taking digital photographs, or mixing with local children.

All the while, their Warrior armoured fighting vehicles remain visible, sending out a clear message to any Taleban who happen to be in the area.

These images of the Scots Guards, who have been on duty in Afghanistan since September, demonstrate the difference that has been made by the introduction of Warriors to the security of the dangerous Helmand province.

Days without conflict in the area are few and far between. Even on a quiet day, it is work fraught with danger and uncertainty, a mix which many more Scots troops look likely to experience over the next year.

Their "home", at Forward Operating Base Arnhem, is on the front line of Britain's operations against the Taleban in Helmand province.

Built in August, it overlooks the lush "green zone", an agricultural area several kilometres wide, and has unfettered views into the area within which the Taleban had previously been able to operate at will.

The base, the first of a series to be built along the green zone, is an enduring presence that gives Afghan farmers and their families security.

On patrol, the Warrior vehicles manoeuvre to provide "overwatch" of the green zone. They are never far away and are ready to provide covering fire. Their presence is a comfort to soldiers on the ground, who are aware of the Warriors' impressive firepower.

The first weeks of September were a baptism of fire. Strips of cardboard ripped from ration boxes are pinned to the rough wooden beams which support the hardened command post. Hastily scribbled numbers record details of the daily mortar and rocket attacks and serve as an operational record of more unsettled times.

More recently the situation has changed. Now the camp is infrequently attacked, although the soldiers carry helmets and body armour everywhere. The maxim: "Soldiers must be lucky all of the time, terrorists only once" is applicable in Helmand as it was in Northern Ireland 20 years ago.

Forces have been determined not to let territory which has been fought over be infiltrated by the Taleban once more. Initial attacks were followed up time and time again in Operation Palk Wahel in which the Taleban were forced out of the area. The Scots Guards played a major part providing mobility and fire support during the operation.

Afghans in the area are beginning to respond to the continual presence of troops by providing bits of intelligence. Bombardier Steven Renwick describes being told by one man on which side of a track Taleban mines were.

For the soldiers, the most significant change though has been the introduction of the Warriors. Major Chris Bell, the commanding officer, said: "We are able to provide fire support in places where it is needed, particularly for dismounted troops going into dangerous situations."

Guardsman Brown, from Pollock in Glasgow, said: "Since we arrived ... the Warriors have given the Taleban a pasting and we haven't seen much of them since."

The Scottish presence in Afghanistan will only increase in the months ahead. Of the Royal Regiment of Scotland's five battalions, two look likely to be deployed there next spring, along with a reinforced armoured infantry company from a third battalion, some 1,400 troops altogether.

That means that in a UK-wide deployment which, by summer of 2008 will stand at over 8,000, more than one in five will be Scottish.

Yesterday, the routine carnage in the region went on as normal, with an explosion killing four policemen and wounding four more.

The blast, in a bazaar close to a mosque in the town of Gereshk in Helmand, also injured ten civilians.

It came on the first day of the Eid al-Fitr Muslim holiday, when many worshippers gather to pray in mosques to mark the end of Ramadan.

British forces in Helmand were preparing to airlift the wounded police by helicopter to a military hospital.

Taleban insurgents have carried out more than 100 suicide bombings this year in recent months, killing more than 200 people.

Mainly British troops are engaged in almost daily battles with Taleban fighters for control of Helmand, a large desert area, where most of Afghanistan's opium is produced.
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1635962007
 
#6
Last summer we had no means of escolation! apart from soft to hard hat. our Brigade Comd said he asked for it last year and was fobbed off, even though the Government stated that "no extra troops or equipment have been requested" about time top brass listened to the Tom on the ground.
 
#7
Like Themanwho said it's horses for courses, they're just going to have to be very careful in how they use them. The Soviets brought in large numbers of APCs/IFVs and tanks into Afghanistan and then proceeded to get lots of them shot up by the Mujahideen. Getting mobbed by RPGs, mines or IEDs are going to be a worry if they're used badly.
 
#8
Themanwho said:
Horses for courses, PE4. WR is excellent, WMIK is too. Having both options in your toybox makes sense. comparison of two different systems always is tricky.
Appologies, I was not advocating an either or scenario, just right tools for the job. IMHO the powers that be seem, to me anyway, to have been trying to do this on the cheap and while taking nothing whatsoever away from Paras & Marines and Non mech Inf, they were trying to do exactly what you thought I was saying vis armour, but with inf.
<cliche alert>
When push comes to shove, it's a fcukin' war innit?
Therefore chaps need all types of asset on the ground. Nicht wahr?
 
#9
Have to agree the more options of different types of vehicles the better but as we learned in Iraq were not fighting against a mickey mouse outfit and its about time the suits listened to the blokes and commanders on the ground.

Got to go quick a black 4x4 with 4 blokes in suits have just arrived outs........
 
#10
As has been said, horses for courses. WR has no chance in the Green Zone unless it has escorting foot borne inf. However in the overwatch role it is excellent - much like Mastiff. WMIK is much better close in due its increased mobility. VIKING also an excellent piece of kit.

It seems Afghan is a theatre where everyone has a part to play and it is true All Arms battle field, where all our kit and personnel have an important part to play - perhaps we should all get high pay band!
 
#11
Oldbaldy - "Do you mean this" - thanks, I did.

On the subject of the Soviet experience with AFV in Afghanistan, I know we aren't comparing like with like (USSR v Mujahidden, Allies v Talibs), but do you ever think that we all spent nearly fifty years cacking ourselves about the supposed awesome power of the Soviet Union, major exercises in Germany were all based on the idea of rolling retreat, when in fact they might have been rubbish and if they had ever attacked western Europe they might have got a hiding?

Certainly the dire warnings about what would happen in Afghan haven't meant much so far. I can remember some ex-Soviet analyst a couple of years ago on the box saying that the one thing we mustn't do was put AFV's in Afghan. Well, maybe decent kit, skilfully deployed, with trained crew is a bit different from junk, full of conscripts, led by disenchanted cynics.
 
#12
gobbyidiot said:
Oldbaldy - "Do you mean this" - thanks, I did.

On the subject of the Soviet experience with AFV in Afghanistan, I know we aren't comparing like with like (USSR v Mujahidden, Allies v Talibs), but do you ever think that we all spent nearly fifty years cacking ourselves about the supposed awesome power of the Soviet Union, major exercises in Germany were all based on the idea of rolling retreat, when in fact they might have been rubbish and if they had ever attacked western Europe they might have got a hiding?

Certainly the dire warnings about what would happen in Afghan haven't meant much so far. I can remember some ex-Soviet analyst a couple of years ago on the box saying that the one thing we mustn't do was put AFV's in Afghan. Well, maybe decent kit, skilfully deployed, with trained crew is a bit different from junk, full of conscripts, led by disenchanted cynics.
But is that not...

Oh, sorry - you mean it was the SOVS that were not trained and led by disenchanted cynics....

Right..

OK..
 

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