War zone bonuses - UK civil servants cash in

#21
As a CS who has been in Iraq could I explain a little about how the system works as this is a totally misunderstood subject.

The normal CS is paid to work 37 hours per week. They do not receive X factor or normally get paid overtime. 50% of CS in the MOD earn under £20k per year.

When deployed, they go out in very niche roles, for which the military would struggle to fill, or who lack the bodies to fill the roles in a hurry. They then recieve for the duration of their posting an additional monthly allowance which averages £4000 - £5000 (£1250 per week)#

How does this break down though? Well for starters, most of it is as an overtime payment. In theatre the average CS will work a 90 - 100 hour week - in other words roughly 3 times their weekly contracted requirement. They are being paid for the additional work done above and beyond that which they usually do - for the average CS on £25k this works out at roughly £960 per week (3800) in overtime payments. There is a small X factor, which recognises the difficulties in the post, plus the risk involved - not insignificant as many CS have to go outside the wire although it is not comparable to a line infanteer of course. This risk payment reflects the bulk of the additional pay. Obviously CS do not get any form of council tax rebate etc.

Is this a get rich quick scam? good question. The average CS is poorly paid, and to many this represents a good chance to earn a deposit. However, to go on a deployment you need to go through fairly extensive screening, and anyone going purely for the money will be binned quickly. Tour posts are seen as good testing grounds for CS who are going places nowadays, as it puts you under pressure and develops your skills in a hurry.

Do you need to pay the extra? Well yes you do. The extra pay reflects the extra hours worked in theatre - its like telling a squaddy he needs to work a 120 hour week, but will only be paid for 37 hours of it. You'd be pissed off at that, so why should some people here deem it ok for a CS to work for free then if you're not prepared to? You need to pay the risk factor too as most CS didn't join up to go to Iraq - if they wanted to do that originally, then they'd have joined the army! Fundamentally every sector working in Iraq apart from the armed forces has to pay a lot more money to attract people to work there - the CS is no different.

As for the bonus scheme - don't assume the bonus means what it says. The bonus is a particularly invidious scheme introduced by the treasury to avoid giving pay rises - if people get a bonus then its considered non pensionable. Its far cheaper to pay someone a bonus as a one off payment, than increase their salary and long term pension earnings.

Sadly I'm away with the reserves for the weekend, but I'll look forward to pages of "whinging CS fat cnuts shouldnt be paid as they are f*cking scumbags" etc when I get back.
 
#22
To say Civil servants are payed less poorly is not true.

Its true that everbody gets payed extra for iraq apart form the forces.

As for not paying more to increase the pensions may be but that racket should be stopped and switched to one based on purley on contrabutions the princple pensions scheme should be scapped and people could be payed a pension based on the 3.5 percent of real money they paid to an imaginary scheme.
 
#23
""These civil servants are never in harm's way, they are always in a safe base." - Bob Stewart

Tell me, when did the JAM introduce the special missiles that don't hurt civilians? Last time I checked there were civvies at BP and BAS - after all, its not like anyones ever been killed there from IDF now is it?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
#24
jim30 said:
When deployed, they go out in very niche roles, for which the military would struggle to fill, or who lack the bodies to fill the roles in a hurry. They then recieve for the duration of their posting an additional monthly allowance which averages £4000 - £5000 (£1250 per week)#
Bloody hell, I'm in the wrong part of the CS - that's ten times the deployment allowance I got in Basrah. (Or else Jim30 misplaced a decimal point...)
 
#25
It changed about 6 months ago - before it was actuals, but now its flat rate but grade dependent - the more senior you are, the more you get.
 
#27
I think the argument is that civil servants are not paid too much for being in a danger zone and good luck to them if their union can get it, but it is the poor pay in comparison to service personnel who have no one to negotiate for them and have to put up with what they get.

Many of the civil servants do a great job and are a great asset to the military effort however £15000 for a private soldier who works all the hours god sends in appalling conditions with grave risk to life and limb is really pathetic. That is the debate and we should not get into a slagging match because civil servants have negotiators who get then a good rate for the job. The government will pay what they can get away with and with soldiers on active service its a low rate, indeed below the minimum wage.
 
#28
The point about CS being well qualified but low paid is easily countered; they have always been low paid and staff knew this when they joined.
 
#29
They are not low paid nor highly qualified in the main. What they do have is a system in place to ensure that its poltically diffcult not to meet there demands. Subversives.
 
#30
jim30 said:
When deployed, they go out in very niche roles, for which the military would struggle to fill, or who lack the bodies to fill the roles in a hurry.
And whose fault is that pray tell?
 
#33
jim30 said:
The normal CS is paid to work 37 hours per week. They do not receive X factor or normally get paid overtime. 50% of CS in the MOD earn under £20k per year..
Yeah, and they knew that when they signed up. So what?

jim30 said:
When deployed, they go out in very niche roles, for which the military would struggle to fill, or who lack the bodies to fill the roles in a hurry. They then recieve for the duration of their posting an additional monthly allowance which averages £4000 - £5000 (£1250 per week).

I can do maths. That equivilent to £65,000 a year extra. Have you any idea how insulting that is? Niche roles? Bollox spin. If there are best part of 500 CS in telic and herric on that rate its effectively deploying a battalion worth of spods on more than CO's pay. How can you justify that? I have worked with a few good CS but many many more are absolute shockers who are not fit to kiss a captains boots let alone a COs. And if i hear one more CS refer to another as a one star or three star or whatever i may well give it up, drop out and become a hippy. Absolute self-important dross.

jim30 said:
How does this break down though? Well for starters, most of it is as an overtime payment. In theatre the average CS will work a 90 - 100 hour week - in other words roughly 3 times their weekly contracted requirement.
Please stop, my heart is bleeding. I'll wager that sweet round pair of peaches has never been forced 'twixt two splintered planks, to plug a leak and save a ship! Working a 100 hour week is really going to impress few people here.

jim30 said:
Obviously CS do not get any form of council tax rebate etc..
The horror the horror.....

jim30 said:
Tour posts are seen as good testing grounds for CS who are going places nowadays, as it puts you under pressure and develops your skills in a hurry...
Wait, hang on? Do they have the skills or not? I thought these people were getting deployed because they were already outstanding experts in their field that justified their pay. Now you are saying they make it up as they go along..

jim30 said:
Do you need to pay the extra? Well yes you do. The extra pay reflects the extra hours worked in theatre - its like telling a squaddy he needs to work a 120 hour week, but will only be paid for 37 hours of it. ..
Erm, ok, you've nailed it there. Noo further questions m'laud.

jim30 said:
Sadly I'm away with the reserves for the weekend, but I'll look forward to pages of "whinging CS fat cnuts shouldnt be paid as they are f*cking scumbags" etc when I get back.
My pleasure. Only wish i had the time to write more. Some extra pay of CS deploying abroad is understandable but the equiv. of 65k extra a year is absolutely absolutely indefencibly and taking the pish. I've worked with some good CS but more often some clueless ******* that shouldnt be paid their basic. Many many MoD and FCO 'fastreamers', or the best and the brightest as they like to call each other are nothing but a joke. Bottom line, its the troops that do the dirty work. Look after them first and then if there is any left over the CS can get paid extra. Seems to me the whole concept of civil service has vaporised and its only the boys and girls at the sharp end that have any concept of public service as our forefathers would recognise. Rant off. Show clear.


Edited to add - nothing personal Jim, I have read some good posts by you in the past but this is not a defensible pay policy so long as the boys actually doing the tough jobs on the front line continue to get paid way way below what they are worth in comparison. This is a get rich pay down that house deposit scheme for the CS and its disrespectful, and its not on IMHO.
 
#34
"The extra pay reflects the extra hours worked in theatre - its like telling a squaddy he needs to work a 120 hour week, but will only be paid for 37 hours of it."

So you mean to tell me that every time I went on a 3 week exercise in BAOR and was lucky to get 5-6 hrs sleep/rest a day, living in the back of a bedford/tent without hot/cold running water and living on tinned food, I could have claimed an overtime payment????
Where were the clerks to point this out to me and can I now back claim??
 
#36
Pick your branch take your chance

The FCO HR department is ruthlessly run. The woman at the top, responsible for sending FCO call signs to Iraqistan stands up for her people like a lioness defends her cubs (I've sat in a meeting when she "went to war" and it was very impressive and fecking scary)

If the forces had people like that backing their cause they'd be eating ice cream in multiplex cinemas on their nights off on ops.

No doubt unusual amongst civil serpents, but winging about other peoples money is like complaining that premiership players pay is to high. Pointless and a bit bitter
 
#38
I would not mind what they got paid if the Army was even half way adequately treated. When I was a pad brat in BAOR my old man got paid at 11 DM to the pound. 7 years later when I was posted there we were on DM 4.00. In the same period those utterly useless plonkers in the MOD managed to REDUCE the LOA to a pittance. Go figure. Plus we were confined to barracks for 6 months for the *moratorium* (overspend). It has always been true that the real enemies of the Army are:
1. The Civil Service
2. The Treasury
3. The Royal Air Force.
:)
 
#39
jockass said:
jim30 said:
The normal CS is paid to work 37 hours per week. They do not receive X factor or normally get paid overtime. 50% of CS in the MOD earn under £20k per year..
Yeah, and they knew that when they signed up. So what?

jim30 said:
When deployed, they go out in very niche roles, for which the military would struggle to fill, or who lack the bodies to fill the roles in a hurry. They then recieve for the duration of their posting an additional monthly allowance which averages £4000 - £5000 (£1250 per week).

I can do maths. That equivilent to £65,000 a year extra. Have you any idea how insulting that is? Niche roles? Bollox spin. If there are best part of 500 CS in telic and herric on that rate its effectively deploying a battalion worth of spods on more than CO's pay. How can you justify that? I have worked with a few good CS but many many more are absolute shockers who are not fit to kiss a captains boots let alone a COs. And if i hear one more CS refer to another as a one star or three star or whatever i may well give it up, drop out and become a hippy. Absolute self-important dross.

jim30 said:
How does this break down though? Well for starters, most of it is as an overtime payment. In theatre the average CS will work a 90 - 100 hour week - in other words roughly 3 times their weekly contracted requirement.
Please stop, my heart is bleeding. I'll wager that sweet round pair of peaches has never been forced 'twixt two splintered planks, to plug a leak and save a ship! Working a 100 hour week is really going to impress few people here.

jim30 said:
Obviously CS do not get any form of council tax rebate etc..
The horror the horror.....

jim30 said:
Tour posts are seen as good testing grounds for CS who are going places nowadays, as it puts you under pressure and develops your skills in a hurry...
Wait, hang on? Do they have the skills or not? I thought these people were getting deployed because they were already outstanding experts in their field that justified their pay. Now you are saying they make it up as they go along..

jim30 said:
Do you need to pay the extra? Well yes you do. The extra pay reflects the extra hours worked in theatre - its like telling a squaddy he needs to work a 120 hour week, but will only be paid for 37 hours of it. ..
Erm, ok, you've nailed it there. Noo further questions m'laud.

jim30 said:
Sadly I'm away with the reserves for the weekend, but I'll look forward to pages of "whinging CS fat cnuts shouldnt be paid as they are f*cking scumbags" etc when I get back.
My pleasure. Only wish i had the time to write more. Some extra pay of CS deploying abroad is understandable but the equiv. of 65k extra a year is absolutely absolutely indefencibly and taking the pish. I've worked with some good CS but more often some clueless ******* that shouldnt be paid their basic. Many many MoD and FCO 'fastreamers', or the best and the brightest as they like to call each other are nothing but a joke. Bottom line, its the troops that do the dirty work. Look after them first and then if there is any left over the CS can get paid extra. Seems to me the whole concept of civil service has vaporised and its only the boys and girls at the sharp end that have any concept of public service as our forefathers would recognise. Rant off. Show clear.


Edited to add - nothing personal Jim, I have read some good posts by you in the past but this is not a defensible pay policy so long as the boys actually doing the tough jobs on the front line continue to get paid way way below what they are worth in comparison. This is a get rich pay down that house deposit scheme for the CS and its disrespectful, and its not on IMHO.
That's a very bitter post, and probably on the same scale as those who posted comments on the BBC website, suggesting soldiers should get proper jobs, when they run the story about service digs being substandard.

Yes, the pay is not enough (although it's going to be a while before I'm back on what I was before I left), but you're going to be in a constant state of outrage if you are going to get annoyed at every person who earns more than you.
 
#40
I chose to join the Army. I was aware of the pay and conditions when I joined. I spent 24 years in and don't regret it. I chose to join the Civil Service a couple of years after leaving the Army. I was aware of the pay and conditions when I joined. I have now served for nearly 7 years and have only just reached the salary I was on in the military (and don't moan or bitch about it). We don't make the pay and conditions - they are either imposed on us (Military) or negotiated for us (Civil Service). To have a pop at a large body of, on the whole, poorly paid public servants is very immature and bitter. Yes, there are useless tossers in the CS who are overpaid and underworked - same goes for parts of the military. As for the one-star etc equivalence thing, don't blame the CS. These equivalent ranks came about from the military when deciding upon things like living accommodation and which mess to put you in if you, as a civil servant, serve with a military unit. If you don't like your terms and conditions get out (Mil or CS)! The choice is yours.
 

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