War crimes in Chechnya

#1
Of course I don't tolerate war crimes everywhere including Chechnya.

Our friend Ghost_us on another thread kindly noted

ghost_us said:
Ok, then care to explain this?

Chechnya... Russian estimates of deaths during the twenty-one-month war range up to 90,000, mostly civilians. Some 600,000 people, half the population, fled or were driven from their homes. Both sides committed atrocities, although the far larger Russian military was guilty of the worse excesses. Russian troops indiscriminately attacked towns and villages, killing and raping civilians, pillaging and burning homes.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/chechnya.html
Who namely was raped? I prefer to discuss concrete facts, concrete war crimes, atrocities ans so on. Colonel Budanov was sentenced to 10 year for killing of Chechen lass and is in the jail now. It is a concrete case.

ghost_us said:
Or perhaps you would care to explain how Russian military doesn't target young children, just the towns. buildings, and houses where they live. They may or may not get hit, but who cares, right Sergey? I mean, those rebels want to break away from the motherland. They must be defeated to create stability in the region.

In an attempt to limit casualties among its soldiers, Russia relied heavily on air attacks. Villages and towns were "softened up" by prolonged aerial bombardments and shelling before Russian troops moved in. This strategy led to large numbers of casualties among civilians and destruction of civilian property on a horrific scale. In many of the aerial or artillery attacks Russian officers did not differentiate between military and civilian objects. When targeting military objects, Russian forces frequently used force that was clearly excessive compared to the military gain to be expected.
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/europe/russian.html
Yes aerial bombardments and gun fire were used during the war. But name me even one modern war where they were not used.

ghost_us said:
Or perhaps care to explain how Russia bypasses geneva convention by targeting towns with WMD.

There is ample evidence, including TV footage, of the use of TOS-1 multiple rocket launchers against Grozny, its suburbs and other Chechen towns. (TOS stands for "heavy fire-throwing system.") These rockets are filled with a flammable liquid that causes terrific aerosol explosions at impact, killing persons, destroying property and causing fires. The third protocol of the 1980 Geneva Convention (signed and ratified by Russia) forbids the use of such "air-delivered incendiary weapons" even against military targets in populated areas.
http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol10/Felgenhauer.html
TOS-1 (Buratino) is not WMD. It is indeed "heavy fire-throwing system". It was used against undeground bunkers and is very efficient. First time I hear that such weapons were banned.



 
#2
For a good overview of the second Chechenya war... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/chechnya2.htm

Sergey,

Our operation to take Fallujah a couple years ago was a pale echo of what your military did to sieze Grozny... we used a lighter touch and less indescriminate fires but the methodical clearing of a city block by block is never a simple exercise. Easy to criticize somebody for being heavy handed but in the case of Grozny, the method probably saved thousands of Russian lives.
 
#3
Khyros said:
For a good overview of the second Chechenya war... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/chechnya2.htm

Sergey,

Our operation to take Fallujah a couple years ago was a pale echo of what your military did to sieze Grozny... we used a lighter touch and less indescriminate fires but the methodical clearing of a city block by block is never a simple exercise. Easy to criticize somebody for being heavy handed but in the case of Grozny, the method probably saved thousands of Russian lives.
I don't think that your source is so valuable.

Second Chechnya War - 1999-???

When the Russian incursion into Chechnya began in October 1999, Russia said its objectives were limited to subduing bandits hiding in Chechnya's mountains.
Actually the war ended some years ago. Number of rebels is low, their actions are rare and are rather local pin-point operations.

There was very clear objective - to defeat Chechen rebels as military force and using pro-Kremlin collaborants to establish effective control over Chechnya. And mainly it has been done. Btw, I believe that USA have the same objective in Iraq. But the insurgents as a military force hasn't been defeated and pro-American collaborants are weak and think mainly how to steal as much as possible.

The Russian authorities present the war in Chechnya as a crusade against terrorism...
And USA regards Ieaqi war as a strugle against terrorism. In both cases it is not true.

As of July, 2006 the overall security situation in Chechnya remains exceedingly difficult to accurately report due to the near monopoly the Russian government has on media covering the issue.
Well, let's look what BBC writes about Chechnya

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5243428.stm

Memorial's monitors were also struck by how much physical change was taking place under the stewardship of Mr Kadyrov.

For instance, they said, it was possible to go for a coffee on several of the main streets in Grozny.

From the outside, the city looks like a building site these days, with fountains, gardens and offices being rebuilt, the report says.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6188332.stm

The whole of central Grozny has substantially changed since then.

After the war the town had not a single building standing, whole streets in ruins, crumbled balconies, gaping holes in the walls caused by heavy bombardment.

Now there are startlingly white new apartment blocks instead of ruins, new pavements along the newly asphalted streets with recently opened new restaurants, shops and even internet cafes.

Some claim this is the result of Moscow money pouring in to Chechnya to erase the aftermath of two destructive wars and to win Chechen support in view of the 2008 presidential elections in Russia.

There is little left from the atmosphere of horror in this school.

Kids are busy electing their new president - teachers have delegated some authority to children. Pupils even have a government. For instance a foreign affairs minister is in charge of liaising with other schools in Grozny.
I fancy when the same thing would be said about Baghdad, Basrah or Fallujah?
 
#4
Khyros said:
Our operation to take Fallujah a couple years ago was a pale echo of what your military did to sieze Grozny... we used a lighter touch and less indescriminate fires but the methodical clearing of a city block by block is never a simple exercise. Easy to criticize somebody for being heavy handed but in the case of Grozny, the method probably saved thousands of Russian lives.
Sergey

I think Khyros is right on this point I also think that you too agree with him.
 
#5
armchair_jihad said:
Khyros said:
Our operation to take Fallujah a couple years ago was a pale echo of what your military did to sieze Grozny... we used a lighter touch and less indescriminate fires but the methodical clearing of a city block by block is never a simple exercise. Easy to criticize somebody for being heavy handed but in the case of Grozny, the method probably saved thousands of Russian lives.
Sergey

I think Khyros is right on this point I also think that you too agree with him.
Of course, I agree with him.
 
#6
KGB_resident said:
Of course I don't tolerate war crimes everywhere including Chechnya.
Just someplaces then?

(I do realise english is not your first language, but in the above it has totally changed what I think you meant.)
 
#7
EX_REME said:
KGB_resident said:
Of course I don't tolerate war crimes everywhere including Chechnya.
Just someplaces then?

(I do realise english is not your first language, but in the above it has totally changed what I think you meant.)
Of course, I'm not a native English-speaker. Really I meant

I Don't tolerate war crimes without any exceptions. Everywhere, in each corner of the World there is no place for war crimes, including Chechnya (it is not an exception too).

Sorry for poor English.
 
#8
KGB_resident said:
EX_REME said:
KGB_resident said:
Of course I don't tolerate war crimes everywhere including Chechnya.
Just someplaces then?

(I do realise english is not your first language, but in the above it has totally changed what I think you meant.)
Of course, I'm not a native English-speaker. Really I meant

I Don't tolerate war crimes without any exceptions. Everywhere, in each corner of the World there is no place for war crimes, including Chechnya (it is not an exception too).

Sorry for poor English.
Just changing everywhere to anywhere would have done it.
 
#9
EX_REME said:
KGB_resident said:
EX_REME said:
KGB_resident said:
Of course I don't tolerate war crimes everywhere including Chechnya.
Just someplaces then?

(I do realise english is not your first language, but in the above it has totally changed what I think you meant.)
Of course, I'm not a native English-speaker. Really I meant

I Don't tolerate war crimes without any exceptions. Everywhere, in each corner of the World there is no place for war crimes, including Chechnya (it is not an exception too).

Sorry for poor English.
Just changing everywhere to anywhere would have done it.
Thank you!

I understand your point. One could read my phrase this way:

If war crime take place everywhere in the World then I would not tolerate this situation but even one exception would be enough to change my mind.
 
#10
KGB_resident said:
EX_REME said:
KGB_resident said:
EX_REME said:
KGB_resident said:
Of course I don't tolerate war crimes everywhere including Chechnya.
Just someplaces then?

(I do realise english is not your first language, but in the above it has totally changed what I think you meant.)
Of course, I'm not a native English-speaker. Really I meant

I Don't tolerate war crimes without any exceptions. Everywhere, in each corner of the World there is no place for war crimes, including Chechnya (it is not an exception too).

Sorry for poor English.
Just changing everywhere to anywhere would have done it.
Thank you!

I understand your point. One could read my phrase this way:

If war crime take place everywhere in the World then I would not tolerate this situation but even one exception would be enough to change my mind.
Why is it we never see you posting about civilians killed by insurgents or anything on Palestinian groups. You harp on Israel with thinly veiled "here's a post showing Israel to be the bad guy, I don't agree with it but read it anyway". We read through the lines, and anyone that's read any one of your thousands of posts gets the picture. Many here believe you are not a person but an organization: Again
"On the other hand -- and this is the other side of the Soviet intelligence, very important: perhaps I would describe it as the heart and soul of the Soviet intelligence -- was subversion. Not intelligence collection, but subversion: active measures to weaken the West, to drive wedges in the Western community alliances of all sorts, particularly NATO, to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people of Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and thus to prepare ground in case the war really occurs. To make America more vulnerable to the anger and distrust of other peoples."
http://cicentre.com/disinformation.htm
 
#11
ghost_us said:
Why is it we never see you posting about civilians killed by insurgents or anything on Palestinian groups. You harp on Israel with thinly veiled "here's a post showing Israel to be the bad guy, I don't agree with it but read it anyway". We read through the lines, and anyone that's read any one of your thousands of posts gets the picture.
Ah perhaps Sergeys questioning on this thread may give you a clue ghost_us

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=69217.html


:wink:
 
#12
ghost_us said:
Why is it we never see you posting about civilians killed by insurgents or anything on Palestinian groups. You harp on Israel with thinly veiled "here's a post showing Israel to be the bad guy, I don't agree with it but read it anyway". We read through the lines, and anyone that's read any one of your thousands of posts gets the picture. Many here believe you are not a person but an organization
Palestinians? Ungrateful people, absolutely uninteresting. Their future state will be poor and filled with criminals. You can call me anti-Semite but I don't like Arabs. They are unreliable. According to principless of freedom of speech I reserve a right not to discuss themes that I don't like to discuss.

By contrast, Jewish people is really outstanding. There is a lot of Jewish scientists, writers, musisians, artists, humourists. It is a very talented people, heavily contributed (and contributing) into creation and development of modern civilisation. And there are so many Russian speaking Israelis. Their style of thinking is like my one.
 
#13
Khyros said:
For a good overview of the second Chechenya war... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/chechnya2.htm

Sergey,

Our operation to take Fallujah a couple years ago was a pale echo of what your military did to sieze Grozny... we used a lighter touch and less indescriminate fires but the methodical clearing of a city block by block is never a simple exercise. Easy to criticize somebody for being heavy handed but in the case of Grozny, the method probably saved thousands of Russian lives.
True there is no comparison, huge violation of the GC, extensive use of flame weapons in civilan areas.

The Russkis may have been slightly pissed after Grozny#1 where they got creamed.