War and Order

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Proximo, Jul 21, 2005.

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  1. From The Grauniad (and elsewhere):

    The story above is here. Couple that in with this:

    This piece is here.

    What amazes me (apart from the fact that The Grauniad are banging this particular drum so loudly) is the propensity of certain elements within the Army to make up utter rubbish. I'm absolutely positive that LOAC is a mandatory part of the annual training requirement (ITD(A)s) and that soldiers deploying to Iraq receive a healthy dose of refresher training. Indeed, some Formations have made it the primary requirement apart from WHT/APWT(TS) and ITD(A)1&2.

    I still remain to be convinced that the morale of the British soldier is going to be compromised in the long run. This issue is a perennial one - it happened in NI and it's happening now. My personal belief is that the vast majority of British soldiers regard these incidents as an inevitable by-product of conducting high profile operations in the public eye.
  2. Hear Hear Darth.

    And good to see that, in my absence, you are still all over current affairs!
  3. Good to see which side the grauniad is on...

    We should never hadve signed up to the ICC, as it's wide open to abuse and leaves our servicemen/women open to accusations. The yanks knew what would come of it, but good old tone had to bow to the 'human right's' lobby.

    please don't post any more of their articles as my peptic ulcer can't take it! :D
  4. "Soldiers will be scared to touch anyone. If you run over and crack one of them [an Iraqi] on the back of the legs and put them in plasticuffs and nick them and then the MPs are on your patrol and they go back to camp and then pass it on to SIB [Special Investigation Branch] and then they decide you are too aggressive, what were you supposed to do?

    As long as a fair and complete investigation is carried out within a reasonable timescale and justice is delivered quickly then I have no issues with any charges brought. Unfortunately, as long as RMP, SIB and the APA are involved then I have a great feeling of unease. They make the keystone cops look professional and attila the hun look reasonable. I pity any poor soul who they decide to get involved with.
  5. Finex

    Your post deleted. I don't want to close this thread , but really, I am not going to be taking any chances at all. My stance on this issue is very clear , and it is for the reasons stated over and over again.

    There is to be no discussion on the particulars of any pending or current Courts Martial posted here. The media is all over this for a reason , they think there is something more to these stories, and they are looking for more.

    This is not some anonymous board in cyberspace, this is the ARMY Rumour Service, whose membership is composed of mostly currently serving personnel, Regular and Reserve. Some people here will personally know those who will be tried.

    The Media has quoted from Arrse repeatedly, and I can guarantee any 'informed' commentary on cases will be appearing in print somewhere. I cannot not allow the chance that unguarded comments may be used to directly or indirectly prejudice or influence the proceedings of a Court Martial. JAG Michael Hunter made this point during the Fusiliers CM.

    Arrse is here to allow people to comment on the issues of the day in an anonymous fashion. It is not here to provide "Anonymous Army sources" for news stories involving incredibly sensitive issues with the hand of politics laid firm thereon.

  6. The excuse that no one taught me the geneva convention frankly baffles me . We have heard the charges easy to tell that they were wrong if they did what they accused of .
  7. Yes, we are all taught the Geneva Convention, but although the underlying principles can be applied to operations in Iraq at the moment (i.e. humanity and decency towards your captured opponent and non-combatants) it is my understanding that the Convention itself was last revised before the concept of 'peace-keeping' became commonplace in the mid 90's. The Convention is not designed to cover what are effectively COIN (Counter Insurgency for the media reading) or Peace Support Operations. Can you imagine discussion of the terms of the Geneva Convention in respect of operations in Northern Ireland???

    Operations in Iraq are a very nasty mix of COIN and PSO, where, as people above have rightly pointed out, you have no way of telling friend from foe until the shooting starts. The lads are expected to fulfill the roles of the police and the social services all the while being on constant alert for enemy contact. How the hell are you supposed to apply our very conventional understanding of the Geneva Convention and Law Of Armed Conflict (LOAC) to that? The members of the Police Forces of GB & NI have weeks of dedicated training before they are allowed near a punchy civvy with a pair of handcuffs, and apart from a moderate amount of public order training our lads (among whom, to be fair, there are many who are probably not all as bright or well-educated as your average copper).

    This is not a matter of law, this is a matter of training & acceptance of risk. If you want people to go and police somewhere (Mr Blair & the Grauniad take note), then the best people to send would be trained policemen. If you have not got the resources to send in trained police, or they could not reasonably be expected to cope with the circumstances, then fair enough. But if you decide to send in the Army, you must expect them to occasionally be a little rougher or cruder than the police might be. This is a risk which the PM chose to take, and that is a risk which should therefore be carried by the politicians, not the lads out on the street. What Teflon Tony has done is to let all the risk slide down to the lads doing the job, by not giving them the legal backing that they deserve. He could have accepted the political risk by maintaining the absolute primacy of Military Law for soldiers deployed on operations.

    But he didn't, did he. He sloped shoulders again, to keep his Muslim muckers happy. I have not got words to describe the contempt in which I hold him, not because I am annoyed that he has let the lads down again, but because it is precisely this sort of spineless political shoulder-sloping which puts him so at odds with the steadfast loyalty and integrity that are the preserve of the vast majority of the soldiers and officers he deploys to 'defend the United Kingdom's interests'.
  8. why do the words "appeasment and sacrifice" come to mind.....
  9. peace in our time
  10. The Branch is part of a disciplined service and have to work to the orders they receive. They make no decision as to degree of aggression but just report what happened. Someone else decides whether there was too much aggro or not. I read a comment in another report on the vein of how things should be handled and someone (Col Collins?) said that responsibility for the war goes all the way to the door of No 10 where illegal acts were concerned.
  11. 307

    307 War Hero

    My only memory of LOAC is of a tache wielding NCO asking a bloke why he was making dum-dum Sterling rounds and that he was doing it because he had to 'make sure I get the bastards' ! Almost as good as the dangerous noise vid, with the fella wanging off Charlie G rounds like they're going out of fashion.
  12. Visitors to this site, in case of misunderstanding, the above reminiscence refers to hilarious old videos from a long time ago, not to real life or current training in the Law of Armed Conflict.
  13. Please tell me, then, that the door of No 10 is where the accused can safely rely on for provision of a watertight defence plea... Forgive me for being cynical, but I am confident that, as alluded to above, No 10 would rather keep the Muslim Council for Great Britain, the Opposition, the Press et al happy rather than worry about the careers of a couple of Bill Oddies.

    If the responsibility for war lies with No 10, then surely the responsibility for its consequences lies there also?

    I wholeheartedly agree with the opinion that the military are NOT trained policemen, but find themselves more and more involved in Police-type operations, where the asymmetric nature of the threat means that your average infanteer would do better to learn the Police and Criminal Evidence Act in basic training than learning Fire Control Orders....

    Just my opinion, of course.....:?
  14. Wonder if you could combine Police and Criminal Evidence Act & Fire Control Orders.....

    I must warn you that, enemy front, anything you say, 100, will be taken down, watch and shoot, watch and shoot and used against .....ah sod it ..fire
  15. If we combined PACE with fire control orders in a future New Labour-sanctioned combat environment, presumably we'd have to make sure that insurgents got three square meals a day in a properly lit and ventilated cell with an adequate uninterrupted rest period and with access to free, impartial and confidential legal advice. Then you can hose them down with as much 5.56 as you have stored in your pooches.

    Watch and shoot! Watch and shoot! (on legal aid)