Wales to launch pilot Universal Basic income

philc

LE
Seems the new government is trialling UBI very little details, however I guess they will use their allocation of central government funding and central government can stop all welfare and social payments, giving the Welsh government that instead to share out.

Some how I can see this ending in more tears.

Labour idea and they are such a success in Wales.

 

Mbongwe

Old-Salt
I've never understood what positive effect giving money to people with reasonable- to high-incomes is (if Universal Basic Income truly is regardless of income). And I certainly don't see any long-term benefit in diverting efforts and resources away from supporting people who are not working to find work.

Work gives people so many so much more than just cash in their pocket; it provides skills on which to build better, more interesting careers; it provides social bonds; it provides a sense of purpose; self-esteem; and, importantly, it occupies the time and effort of people (especially some people with troubles and / or weren't brought up well) who would otherwise be causing trouble / committing crime.
 
What is so special about pilots? Navigators lives matter!
 
D

Deleted 4482

Guest
Initially I had concerns for our tame left-handed seated resident @Toastie - who does not like to admit that...he lives rather too close to Wales to be comfortable.

"Tomjet 1435 climb & maintain FL380"
"Tidy butt, climb & maintain FL380 Tomjet 1435"
 
You will own nothing and you will be happy.
 

slick

LE
Wasn`t this tried out in one of the Scandinavian countries (Norway ?). If I recall correctly it failed miserably, as a large proportion of the population were inherantly lazy, and quite prepared to take the cash to cover basics, whilst spending the day in front of the box, instead of trying to increase their income by working.
 
I've never understood what positive effect giving money to people with reasonable- to high-incomes is (if Universal Basic Income truly is regardless of income). And I certainly don't see any long-term benefit in diverting efforts and resources away from supporting people who are not working to find work.

Work gives people so many so much more than just cash in their pocket; it provides skills on which to build better, more interesting careers; it provides social bonds; it provides a sense of purpose; self-esteem; and, importantly, it occupies the time and effort of people (especially some people with troubles and / or weren't brought up well) who would otherwise be causing trouble / committing crime.
Because if they’re giving money to some
People, I want some money as well.

That’s the problem with feeebies, everybody wants them.

I remember listening to a programme on radio 4 a few years back when the givernemnt was increasing childcare funding for working parents. The end result was stay at home parents complaining.

Worth a watch.


The sad state of affairs is that some people need things like child allowance. Others don’t. My kids child allowance gets banked as part of a university fund or housing deposit for when they’re older.

we also need to remember that about 5 to 10% of the population is incapable of looking after themselves. Give them more money and they’ll blow it and still be short.
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
sooo currently I have a job, I pay taxes. taxes are used for a variety of things such as benefits for those deemed to need it..

under this scheme I will pay taxes so that someone can be paid to pay me some of those taxes back to me regardless of my need or desire for it? I assume I'll be paying even more taxes to pay for my payments made from my taxes to be paid back to me to make sure I have a basic level of income despite having a fairly decent income in the first place

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Wasn`t this tried out in one of the Scandinavian countries (Norway ?). If I recall correctly it failed miserably, as a large proportion of the population were inherantly lazy, and quite prepared to take the cash to cover basics, whilst spending the day in front of the box, instead of trying to increase their income by working.
Not large.

 
Wasn`t this tried out in one of the Scandinavian countries (Norway ?). If I recall correctly it failed miserably, as a large proportion of the population were inherantly lazy, and quite prepared to take the cash to cover basics, whilst spending the day in front of the box, instead of trying to increase their income by working.
In 2017, Finland became the first European country to test a government-backed unconditional basic income, which gave people a regular stipend with no strings attached. The trial ended in December 2018 and was widely considered a failure.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Wasn`t this tried out in one of the Scandinavian countries (Norway ?). If I recall correctly it failed miserably, as a large proportion of the population were inherantly lazy, and quite prepared to take the cash to cover basics, whilst spending the day in front of the box, instead of trying to increase their income by working.

Finland, and no, apparently it showed an improvement in wellbeing, mental health and economic security, but there were other factors involved too







So in conclusion, bit of a Curate's Egg, and further study needs to be done.

Canada tried an experiment where they gave people $5,000 - $7,5000 which h was more successful





Now both experiments were rather limited in scale, and differed in their parameters so it will be interesting to see what happens
 
under this scheme I will pay taxes so that someone can be paid to pay me some of those taxes back to me regardless of my need or desire for it? I assume I'll be paying even more taxes to pay for my payments made from my taxes to be paid back to me to make sure I have a basic level of income despite having a fairly decent income in the first place

No. With true UBI, which this isn't, the concept is zero-to-nil administrative overhead. That means the entire operating cost - around £10Bn/year - of the DWP goes away. But it's fine, its former staff will get UBI too.
 

philc

LE
Can immigrants get it? They can take to the hills.

If England see a mass exodus of er Claimant's it sounds a dream, how ever if its a greater burden on the exchequer maybe not so. I really would like to see some thing concreate on costings. How it will effect the Uk tax payer overall, which I think will not be forthcoming, its back of fag packet calculations.
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
No. With true UBI, which this isn't, the concept is zero-to-nil administrative overhead. That means the entire operating cost - around £10Bn/year - of the DWP goes away. But it's fine, its former staff will get UBI too.

Somehow we will manage to administer something at no cost, make many people redundant from the old system, and pay them while taking money off everyone with a job and still paying them as well?

S'cuse me for being daft, but just how does that work?
 
Somehow we will manage to administer something at no cost, make many people redundant from the old system, and pay them while taking money off everyone with a job and still paying them as well?

S'cuse me for being daft, but just how does that work?

I am not necessarily advocating UBI mind, I am just explaining the theory as I understand it.

The concept is that the system is so simple, because it's universal, that it costs next to nothing to run, so the entirety of what is now the welfare/pension budget simply gets divided equally amongst everyone in scope, such as every citizen.


As of these figures, of 65M people in the UK 55M are British nationals.


This says the welfare budget is £218Bn. So that works out at £3963 each. Or £16k roughly for a family of 4, which is tax free obviously, not sure what salary that would be equivalent to, maybe £20k? Perhaps in practice to avoid perverse incentives it would be capped in some way on number of children per household, but it is also replacing child benefit and any other sort of welfare.

This is supposed to be "basic", the bare minimum to live on, and anything extra you would be expected to earn your own money for (on which you would be taxed the same as you are now), or invest into your own or a workplace pension, etc.

It will never happen in the UK because the right hates the idea of giving people free money, and the left hates the idea of massive numbers of public sector workers being surplus to requirements.
 

philc

LE
I am not necessarily advocating UBI mind, I am just explaining the theory as I understand it.

The concept is that the system is so simple, because it's universal, that it costs next to nothing to run, so the entirety of what is now the welfare/pension budget simply gets divided equally amongst everyone in scope, such as every citizen.


As of these figures, of 65M people in the UK 55M are British nationals.


This says the welfare budget is £218Bn. So that works out at £3963 each. Or £16k roughly for a family of 4, which is tax free obviously, not sure what salary that would be equivalent to, maybe £20k? Perhaps in practice to avoid perverse incentives it would be capped in some way on number of children per household, but it is also replacing child benefit and any other sort of welfare.

This is supposed to be "basic", the bare minimum to live on, and anything extra you would be expected to earn your own money for (on which you would be taxed the same as you are now), or invest into your own or a workplace pension, etc.

It will never happen in the UK because the right hates the idea of giving people free money, and the left hates the idea of massive numbers of public sector workers being surplus to requirements.

If that's it, say £16K for a family of 4, end of discussion I can see mass clearance of those on Welfare in London like the Highland Clearances and a huge rise in the slums of Welsh valleys. Happy days for me, don't work, not retired, an extra 8K a year.

I can see a few issues.
 
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