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Wake Up and Smell The Coffee!!

Rooper said:
RCSignals said:
so does the BW

If the BW are that good how come they have got one of the lowest pass rates on career courses such as Snr & Jnr Brecon? And before you give the excuse of Telic, I'm talking about prior to the deployment on this.

They are about on a par with the RS although the Fijians are bringing up their results!
Get down to its basic unit - section or platoon in an infantry unit - who controls it? - leads it? - usually the "hardest" man. If you take most of these hard, tough men and shove them in one unit then surely the rest of the infantry suffers..............this was a criticism levelled at the para regiments in 1947 by a senior officer - sorry, not AT the para regiments but at the way they were "creamed" off from the rest of the heavy infantry.
 
7gunner said:
Rooper said:
RCSignals said:
so does the BW

If the BW are that good how come they have got one of the lowest pass rates on career courses such as Snr & Jnr Brecon? And before you give the excuse of Telic, I'm talking about prior to the deployment on this.

They are about on a par with the RS although the Fijians are bringing up their results!
Get down to its basic unit - section or platoon in an infantry unit - who controls it? - leads it? - usually the "hardest" man. If you take most of these hard, tough men and shove them in one unit then surely the rest of the infantry suffers..............this was a criticism levelled at the para regiments in 1947 by a senior officer - sorry, not AT the para regiments but at the way they were "creamed" off from the rest of the heavy infantry.

No - I can't accept that. In fact what you are saying is bollox. IMHO.

By your premise the sect/pl is run by the hardest man, not the best leader. So your section is run by someone who is more than liklely a pte, never made any rank, never will, but he is well 'ard. The Sect Cpl or Pl Sgt just stand by and let him get on with it. Your OC/CO will, in your scenario, always defer to the 'hardest' man and not the person actually doing the leading?

I have never really header such p i sh in my life.

You are either a walt or have a lot of learning to do.
 
7gunner.

I disagree - I lead a platoon because I am the most experienced man and have leadership qualities. It's nothing to do with being the hardest (although in my case I am that as well - any of my lads reading this feel free to have a go.)

The para regiments are not creamed off the infantry - the recruits want something very different out of the job. Don't slag off the paras - they are good at what they do. And this nonsense about hardness doesn't come into it.

Rooper - I have nothing but respect for the Blackwatch. They are a good fighting Bn. And I'd put money on them holding their own against any troops in the world. exept perhaps my regt.

As for the county and scottish regiments I personally do accept that some of them are going to be lost but personally I think the army will be, if nothing else, a much less interesting entity for their passing.


7gunner - are you actually a serving soldier because you have some funny ideas about how things work.
 
woody said:
Do you think blair would risk a airborne drop with the risk of it all going horribly wrong ?.

I think blair would gladly throw any of our lives away without a second thought if it came to it and he thought he could keep it quiet.
 
Im sorry - you misunderstood me - they were'nt MY comments - they were written by an infantry officer shortly after the war (WW2) in his autobiography and basically he was having a moan as I repeated - perhaps his best volunteered??I dont know.
 
7 gunner,

During WW2 there were lots of units formed up - not all survived - and large numbers of soldiers were drawn away from unlucky regiments:

-e.g., 1 HLI was re-roled as a Mountain Warfare bn and only the CO and RSM were allowed to be over 24 years old... a bn of A&SH had all their U24s swapped with the HLI's Over 24s.

I think the majority of the disagreement is with your premise that the hardest soldier runs the section or platoon... I think we have moved away from those times.

Deathfromabove,

You'd be surprised how many soldiers in the Parachute Regiment were not selected to join more specialist units prior to attending ITC - because they didn't score highly enough on their BARB/GTI tests.

It really is pointless gobbing of about other inf bns being inferior - their ethos is different from the Parachute Regt's but that doesn't mean its worse... it would take a brave man to say that any infantry bn has failed to perform on operations over the last 20 years (at least). The Parachute Regt has been very fortunate to do a lot of ops and get a lot of experience - but you might care to cast your eyes over the chests of soldiers from across the infantry to confirm that you are not the only ones.

My final [spotter] point is that the RGJ are the junior regular infantry regiment - and 4 (V) PARA (in the order of precendence) is the most junior unit in the entire Army. 8)
 
7 gunner

this was a criticism levelled at the para regiments in 1947

I should start by saying I am Ex RGJ, I'll forever claim that a Rifleman is the worlds best infantryman....but since I am not up my own arse and know full well that all regiments have different cultures, traditions, and roles, with my thinking head on I know that it is utter bollocks for me to claim superiority...just as it is for a Para or anyone else.

Nonetheless I shall use my own Regiment, and some other personal experience in an attmpt to enlighten.

The opinion of one Infantry officer from 60 years ago is hardly helpful when considering the Army in 2004. So lets leave that aside or I'll have to bring in probably the two greatest soldier Britain has ever had (The Duke of Wellington and Sir John Moore) and that would be equally pointless.

My father joined the Grenadier Guards in 1948, there was certainly some concern that too many Guardsmen were interested in transfering to the Paras in the early years of his service. From what he tells me this had nothing to do with any idea that Para's were superior, but more to do with the type of disclipline meted out in Guards battalions not being to everyones taste. Consequently, I believe in 1951, the Guards Independent Parachute Company was formed. My father went to this company. Later, when 22 SAS required reinforcement for Malaya The Parachute Regiment formed The Independent Parachute Squadron to provide them. However, when permannent expansion of 22 SAS was necessary it was the Guards unit that was chosen (so my father the joined 22 SAS) and the Para Reg unit was disbanded May 1957. Does that prove that the Guards were better soldiers than the Para's? My father would not (seriously) suggest that, although he certainly would to wind up a Para.

The Parachute Reg famous for putting courage and aggression at the top of thier shopping list for recruits. That reflects thier origins. Formed to instert behind enemy lines lightly armed a Paratrooper needs both of those things in spades. That does not mean that other soldiers do not have them, but we would certainly agree that a Para does or should.

My own Regiment was formed when the Army still wore red coats, fired muskets, soldiers were largely illiterate and discipline was installied by the liberal use of the lash. But warfare was changing and certain enlightened officer saw that there was a need for inteligent, independent, self disciplined, soldier who could use thier own initiative to accomplish task. The Regiments very first standing orders reffered to "the thinking rifleman" and for the first time laid down orders that officers were to put their mens welfare first. The culture of "the thinking rifleman" still exists today and if I were to single out one attribute that the regiment has as a consequence of its historical culture it is that it is a forward looking regiment. It has been innovative sine the time it was formed, being the first British mechanised infantry and glider borne infantry for example. Conversely the Parachute Reg hangs on tenaciously to the single role ot was formed for. So does the fact that RGJ put intelligence, innovation and innitiative at the top of thier shopping list mean that Para's are thick by comparison? Well I have worked with Para's on ops and on courses and I wouldn't say so.

Apologies for using my own Regiment as an example, I certainly am not aiming to put them on a pedestal and I am well aware that many infantry regiments have thier own particular strengths.

Nothing wrong with some competition, nothing wrong with "bigging up" your own lots. But fer fucks sake don't start believing your own propoganda. Lighten up a bit. You'll all need each other when you are in the brown stuff, indeed your regiment has been got out of it by other infantry in the past, as mine has, so you can bet you'll be dying to see them roll up again one day and you won't be calling them craphats when they do.
 
Gwailo.

Good stuff. It could have been written at any time during the British Army's history, whether to light infantry. fusiliers, paras - each one particular job. Now, the point is that, having been brought on to do a specific job, the units have done that job well they have been added to the establishment as something which adds to the whole of the British army.

Remember, infantry, regardless of name or how they go about their business, are the reason for having an army.

Now, as it is nearly 1 am (here) and I have had a sherbet or three, I really must point out that the army seems to be regressing in that
[marq=right]My own Regiment was formed when the Army still wore red coats, fired muskets, soldiers were largely illiterate and discipline was installied by the liberal use of the lash[/marq]

Paras are still largely illiterate and, from other posts on this site, use discipline by the lash. I was thinking about the bunch of puffs known as the Mortar Platoon. I believe that they are not allowed to wear rings as that will leave marks on the lino (concrete) as they leave their block.

So Gwailo - aplogies
Paras - get a life.
 
From the outside looking in . I have worked with a lot of infantry and by far the best has to be RGJ . The most professional yet the most modest . Good blokes . Paras are up themselves , saying that i have met some good 3 para guys . Who no that the rest of the army does exist .
 
Actually, this was when I was TA so after I left 2RGJ.

I did a GPMG SF Platoon Commanders course at SofI Warminster and was paired up with a Para Sgt whose name I can't recall. He was a scouse, so must have been 4 Para I think. Someone must know him, he got the QGM for saving the lives of some blokes who had dropped into a lake or something and the don,t dish out QGM's that often.

Anyway, good bloke and much laughs were had so if anyone knows who I mean let me know. I'd love to get in touch with him. He was about 3 foot taller than me and watching us leapord crawl with a mounted gun must have been a peculiar sight. I had to stretch three times for his once.

Oh, and I came top of the course.......Modest Cpl? hehe not me mate.
 
With the restructuring signalling the route that the Army is going to take in the future, is it possible that the Inf will be divided in to two parts, Heavy and Light? I only mention this here as it seems that yes there is a lot of Para bashing going on for whatever reason, personal or otherwise. As was correctly mentioned earlier we all bring different skils to the party. The Para's would not have been able to cope with Telic 4 during the uprising as they would have taken extensive casualties due to the nature of the actions carried out by the enemy. Equally the units involved in these actions would not have been able to jump in to the field of operations or carry out air lift ops with the level of skill that the Para's can.

With arms plot ceasing, (something the Para's have never really been involved in apart from an experiment in the late 70's I believe) units can now focus on the skills that are actually required for their sphere. Armoured warfare and operations but its very nature is a high speed, intense action. (20mins from recce locating an enemy to the BG crossing the LD) this demands skills that would not be as necessary as within a light role battalion and vica verca.

I believe that units will now be able to focus on the business with a heightened clarity that the Para's have been able to enjoy being out of the arms plot loop.

Perhaps when this happens, it will no longer be Regt vs. the rest of the Army but light Vs. Heavy.
 
Auld-Yin said:
Gwailo.

Good stuff. It could have been written at any time during the British Army's history, whether to light infantry. fusiliers, paras - each one particular job. Now, the point is that, having been brought on to do a specific job, the units have done that job well they have been added to the establishment as something which adds to the whole of the British army.

Paras are still largely illiterate

So Gwailo - aplogies
Paras - get a life.

Auld-Yin

Perhaps you may wish to edit your post and remove YOUR examples of illiteracy.


Such as lack of capital letters:

Auld-Yin said:
Gwailo.

whether to light infantry. fusiliers, paras - each one particular job. ....... British army.

Or purely spelling mistakes:

Auld-Yin said:
So Gwailo - aplogies
 
Rooper. Shut up. Threads like this have been locked in the past because comments like this are neither constructive or interesting. This is neither an English Language examination nor is it a spelling test. You are being a pedantic tw@t. fcuk off.
 
Lairdx,

Thanks for the wonderful use of the English language by you.

I was trying to point out that Auld-Yin had classed the majority of Paras as being illiterate however his own post was no better.

ATB
 
GwaiLo said:
Later, when 22 SAS required reinforcement for Malaya The Parachute Regiment formed The Independent Parachute Squadron to provide them. However, when permannent expansion of 22 SAS was necessary it was the Guards unit that was chosen (so my father the joined 22 SAS) and the Para Reg unit was disbanded May 1957.

G Squadron wasn't formed until 1967 after Borneo, and it caused a near riot at Hereford when 15 Guardsmen were transferred over and re-badged without having to do selection.

By this time, the Para Regt was providing the majority of volunteers for 22 SAS anyway and the 'Para Sqn' of 22 SAS was simply the Patrols Companies of the Para Battalions on roulement during the Borneo campaign.
 

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