Wake Up and Smell The Coffee!!

Discussion in 'Infantry' started by Rooper, Aug 20, 2004.

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  1. I'm sick of hearing individuals bleating on about the proposed changes to the Army and the Infantry in particular.

    Lets face a few facts; the Infantry as it stands isn't working too well due to the tour intervals, rerolling of AI Bns etc. The proposed changes will go a long way towards addressing these problems and will hopefully ensure an Infantry of the future with a little more stability.

    The main thing I'm sick of hearing about are the county or Scottish regiments that might get the chop. Two of the criteria that was looked at when the plans were being made for the changes were:

    a. Who is the regiments/battalions recruiting and retention like.

    b. What is the regiments/battlions success rate on career courses.

    Some of the regiments and battalions 'facing the chop' score very badly on both of these accounts. I know for certain that certain battalions, both from North and South of the border struggle like hell to get a bloke through either PSBC or SCBC.

    CGS gets a lot of stick (especially on these forums), with individuals saying that he favoured the Paras etc when the decisions were made. Lets face it there was a lot more to it than his alleged regimental loyalty. As the Director of Infantry himself briefed members of the recent Platoon Commander's Battle Course 'the Paras set the Gold Standard when it comes to performance', especially on the course held in Brecon, and to my knowledge their recruiting and retention is bloody good too despite the 'poaching' by the Private Security firms for Iraq etc.

    So lets get real; Whilst regimental loyaltys are admirable some battalions need to realise that they are not quite making the grade, in fact soem are f**king useless not to put too finer point on it!

    I should point out that I'm not a Para Regt groupie, merely a realist.

  2. So not even your own opinions then?

    Para ethos throughout the Army?

    No role for Heavy?


    Line Infantry normally as I understand it; form composite coys in other operational Btns when there is a shortfall so perhaps they may not have the luxury of trg time hence course results; after all if the Paras were so shit hot in Iraq last year (ha ha) why were they not re-deployed this year? :wink:
  3. letter, take that gurkin of your nose and drink some herbal tea, you are obviously way toooooo far down the food chain to know the real reason, letter :lol:

    How many consecutive years has your battailon been deployed?

    Now get your self back up to 3 PARAs Mortar block, you bitch :wink:
  4. X-Inf

    X-Inf War Hero Book Reviewer

    So! The only way to become an infantryman in the British Army in the future is to be a para! I think not :!:

    Have the whole infantry force sitting in UK waiting for a quick attack war then just going home once they have re-orged because 'we are not heavy infantry'.

    Who is going to hold the ground and in these days 'fight the peace'? Certainly not your 'sooper-dooper paratrooper' as that will be below him.

    Paratrooper are by the very nature of warfare nowadays - redundant. They will not make combat jumps, they will not become mechanised units they will, however, remain elite as long as people keep putting them on a pedestal.

    Answer - disband the paras and put the resources into bringing the rest of the infantry family up to speed and give them the time and resources to train their soldiers to the stage where they are the 'gold' at PSBC or SCBC.

    My last point is - how devisive can PoD as D Inf get by declaring one group of people 'gold' remainder nothing? Really motivating for the remaining members of his (allegedly) infantry I think NOT.

    If you really want to wake up and smell the coffee - which is a Spamism for take a realistic review of what is happening - just look to the good efforts being put in now by units all over the world, not just Iraq.
  5. I hear this same old crap all the time. lets stop having these boring para/no para pissing big chip on shoulder contests, with the some old line. FACT, an Op jump into Iraq from 1 PARA was on the cards, only the RAF prevented it. every Operation has had plans drawn up for that eventuality. the para kit is on the ground if needed. Kosovo again plans were drawn, kit was at had.

    Are heliborne Ops immune from SAM's? no they are just as venerable if not more so than a mass drop of men and equipment in theatre from a C130. it only takes 15 mins to get a full Brigade in place on the DZ from the first green on, if the situation needed it. The very nature of airborne ops are very different from mechanised units and require a different type of training as a result, no rolling replens ect just what you have on your back and what wheels are still running if any, after hitting the ground in an MSP.

    There have been many GOC's & D Inf, in post, non Para, yet they still feel the need to retain this costly asset to this day. why? NO PLAN SURVIVES CONTACT WITH ENEMY, that is why.

    I don't agree with the comments of first post about other inf regiments.
    I have had the pleasure to work with a number of guys from different cap badges. and every one of them has proved to have been every bit as professional as people in my own unit and even some guys in my own unit did not in my opinion come up to there standards, they also never come out with that boring chip on shoulder plop to me when Airborne ops are discussed,,why is that?

    Right im going to have a saucer of milk, chin chin :wink:
  6. Letter Writing Knobber and EX-Inf the pair of you are starting to sound like a couple of worn out records. Most of your comments are better off on a toilet wall and not worthy of this forum. Hate to say it but were your wives getting a good seeing to by a Para while you were both failing Junior Brecon? Because thats the way you are coming across. Now get a grip, grow up, and get with the modern army and dont sit in the past. You will be left behind pretty rapidly.

    PS. Paras not been in Iraq since the end of the war? 2 Para have just spent their 5th Christmas on the trot on ops. Er, in Iraq. Dont see them complaining on this board do you? Tossers.
  7. X-Inf

    X-Inf War Hero Book Reviewer


    I am in no way denigrating the paras - my last posting was (albeit many years ago) at Dering Lines so I have seen them training with other capbadges (incl RM doing PSBC). No problem with them as soldiers as I have said in various other threads.

    I do have difficulty with the concept of paratroops however. Saying 1 Para were ready with bucket & spade but could not go because Teeny Weeny Airways said they would not take them does not hold much conviction. If they ain't goin' to take you, who the hell is?


    "it only takes 15 mins to get a full Brigade in place on the DZ from the first green on, if the situation needed it."
    You forgot to mention if the weather permits.

    I only put this in to demonstrate that anyone can take pot shots at another persons posts. All posts are individual and I respect (most) peoples right to say what they wish.

    The move to FAS seems to be towards rebuilding the British infantry as Light Infantrymen. To put all ones eggs into one basket is asking for trouble. Not every situation this country will meet (or be forced into) will call for light forces. How long will it take to re-role units away from the light role if required? The idea that the infantry should all be like the paras is laughable and, IMHO, totally unworkable.

    Anyway, thanks for the response to my post, I welcome differing points of view, but at no time do I suggest that I will agree with them (and accept the same for peoples' opinions of my views).
  8. Are heliborne ops any diffrent? was D DAY any diffrent. thin argument

    plans were drawn up and in place, and that is the point being made. the only stumbling block that effect the plans and the plans of most units in UK operations are rescources. or the lack of them. just because the resources at the time where not on hand is not an argument to say the Airborne asset is redundant. its just drible. the yanks have jumped 3 op decents one in AFgan. two in Iraq. nil aircraft lost, in Afgan there were small op decents by (uk paratoopers& SF) by C130 using SLS, not HALO.

    why the need to keep a main nucler asset? Thay have never been used since WW2. but you never know, . :wink:
  9. HLS

    HLS Old-Salt

    Here we go again....... :D

    I have kept out of the recent threads regards the cutbacks etc, being former Para Regt myself I know I'd be fuming if my Regt had been lined up for the chop just as have several other posters on here. I don't have any magic answers or much in the way to add to what has already been posted ......and re-posted time and again.

    It appears to my somewhat outdated eye that the general thrust is towards 'light roled' units at the possible expence of some heavy / Amd Inf units...........is this really a bad thing 8O

    Do we really require the level of heavy amour / amd inf units?

    Is the old threat still there (Eastern Bloc)?

    As for the concept of the large/large regiments, which Para Regt / Royal Marines qualify as, being in some way less cohesive than Regiments which have histories going back centuries (yes I know the Marines were founded in 18something or other) I would suggest that members of my old Regt are just as proud of their history even though it was only born in WWII.

    When I was doing the AMF(L) role in the early 80's our Recce Plt had CVRT why arn't some of the amd units re-roled into the Airborne / Cdo role. We used to have a Airborne Recce unit from the RAC (i think) back in the 50/60's always wondered why we never retained it............c'mon tankies, get yourself on P-Coy or down Lympstone, you'll love it :D

    .............don't ask me what tank/vehicle they will use.....may be Cpl Jone's butchers van :D
  10. For fu cks' sake, need we go round this bouy yet again?

    None of the Infantry have a problem, or should have a problem, with the Para Regt. They are good soldiers, of that there is no doubt. But they have their limitations, for example, when facing armour (as proved last year with the Booties). And I would have to err on the side of the unlikelihood of op drops. But being para trained does add a dimension to mentality, so it's probably worthwhile.

    The so called cobbing from the rest of the Inf, as outlined in the first post relates little to the fact that some regiments may be chopped. We are downsizing, and that is a fact. The difficulty most have is the politicisation of the cutbacks, ie:

    1. That Para Regt and Guards Div were not put into the pot to be considered. This is clearly bollocks. If they meet the criteria of recruiting / retention et al, fine, they get through the net, and soldier on.

    2. That the choice of only 1 x Scottish Regt, instead of 2, to avoid fallout is nothing short of disgraceful. Unfortunate though it is for those in the frame.

    These are the issues which folk are pissed off about. So there is no coffee to wake up and smell.

    As for rebalancing our forces, this is a cost driven exercise, and nothing else. The idea of stabilisation of troops is a good idea, and will lead to longevity of experience, something of which the Paras and Royals can be proud. But any line regt, given the resources and time in role will achieve the same.

    But please, dont make me have to lock yet another Regt -v- the rest thread. It's getting tedious.
  11. Well said that man.

    There is a place in theOOB for paras, and there is a place for those troops who will come to relieve them.

    The question should be how do we configure the army to do the best job possible.

    Whilst everyone is arguing about county or not county, the political slapheads and their MOD flunkies are getting away with the real treason.

    A friend of mine is a senior local govt chap and when he wants the council to ignore something he schedules 'The problems of dog fouling' as the preceding article on the agenda. He says the councillors will then spend all their time talking about dogshit.

    This argument is the equivalent of dogshit. Whilst everyone argues about county regiments we are ignoring the fact that HMG is playing russian roulette with the defence of the country.

    Smell the coffee my arrse - wake up and smell the toxic dump in Whitehall.
  12. Know where you are coming from - Bully was a good friend of mine :wink:
  13. Hear Hear it is the ethos that attracts the guy - without this there would not be a Parachute Regiment. 69% of SF come from the Parachute Regiment and Airbourne Forces - Loose the Ethos you Loose the Regiment :evil:
  14. Exactly GP3, lose the Regt, lose the Ethos.

    Now will you kindly remind the most senior serving para in the country that fact.
  15. That was Wilkinson sharp :D :D :D

    Para this, Para that :roll: :roll: