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Virgin Atlantic Files for Bankruptcy

just to reveal my total ignorance in such matters, what will happen to VA pensions if the company goes tits up?
 
It doesn’t affect me in the slightest, I was off for 4 days at the start and haven’t missed a day since along with numerous others in the office the boss has however made it quite clear that anyone who doesn’t return to the office by September can use that as their resignation letter accepting redundancy

We are working from home apart from the onsite support team until at least the end of the year, but then my employer gets it, both in terms of Covid and how to treat their staff.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
We are working from home apart from the onsite support team until at least the end of the year, but then my employer gets it, both in terms of Covid and how to treat their staff.

Ditto - Many of our city offices are set to close or be downsized, the company has contributed towards the cost of computer desks and screens/chairs/docking stations are being delivered to home addresses on request.

The office is dead - long live the home office.

Wordsmith
 
Oh, totally agreed. Dinosaur management, as personified by the IT Director at the last company I worked for directly. It was all about his own little fiefdom, not what was technologically possible. He just wanted to strut around the office lording it over his staff.

IT allows you better than anything else to monitor people's output - actually down to the keystroke.

On the flip side, a big worry for some people as individuals has been the attitude to work - that being at home would be distracting. I've worked at home, pretty much alone, for the last six years. A lot of people in that time asked me how I stayed motivated. The response was a simple one: if I didn't work, pretty shortly thereafter the mortgage stopped getting paid.

Having been forced to work from home in recent months, many others have now also realised this. Quite a number of friends have gone from "I could never work like you" to "I never want to go back to the office five days a week".

And, it'll be bloody hard for any company to suddenly insist on that again, having proven it's not necessary. In fact, it'll be bloody hard to retain staff if other companies operate a more enlightened policy.

All good news, as far as I'm concerned. It'll allow better family cohesion, there'll be (for many) no more 12-hour days for a 7.5-hour working day, and so on. I'd like to see the effects on air quality and local environment (stand fast the loss of fuel tax revenues).

Change has been forced, and we actually have the chance here to do something radical.

meanwhile, desperate tiers of Civil Service management are crying they need staff back in offices as they ‘need oversight’, and drawing up ever more farcical plans to get people back to preserve their non jobs.
 
just to reveal my total ignorance in such matters, what will happen to VA pensions if the company goes tits up?

Sn almost impossible question to answer regrettably. A lot depends on what responsibilities are tied into what and by whom. When BMI went bust, a lot of those that had an interest in taking the profits suddenly washed their hands of some of the downsides of ownership, Lufthansa being the prime example.

Much of it is down to the Pension Protection Fund which supposedly protects employees’ pension rights but with BMI and latterly Monarch, my experience of this is that the victims, and they are victims in every sense of the word, get very little return.

This has just been successfully challenged by the pilots’ union and unless the PPF (essentially the Government) appeal is successful, those affected should see a far better return but still not what they’d payed for. At the end of the day, pensions are deferred pay and as is usual, the fact that they are now taxed as such is conveniently forgotten when that tax could be going to help the pension funds.

Its a fuckinge disgrace.
 
The run on house prices was due to Labour raiding the pension funds in the early 90s, stagnating savings, and letting lots of new people in at the same time. But don’t let facts get in the way.

Ah would that be the Labour party that left Government over a decade ago by any chance

Archie
 
" As a result, for 40 years, Branson and the Virgin empire have – albeit legally – limited their payment of British taxes to a minimal amount. Although these tax arrangements have been openly declared in his companies’ annual statements, he continues to minimise his payment of British taxes. "

That's one of the responsibilities of a limited company to its shareholders - to minimise expenses and maximise profits.

Do you have a pension? An ISA? You're minimising your payment of taxes.

He started a company that offers cheap loans to entrepreneurs so they can try and emulate his success


Branson via his various companies over time has provided employment for thousands of people. All of them pay taxes.

Here's a list of them past and present.


The people with ISAs and Pensions arent asking for taxspayers money to sub their loss making business.

His loan company charges 6%

.

There are cheaper options

The fact he provides a lot of jobs was always for his benefit, any to the taxpayer was coincidental.

Hes just the same as any other rich businessman, ruthless and does his best to pay the least he can while getting out the begging bowl when he wants the taxpayer to help him out. He just has better PR than most of them.
 
"I am providing electricity, heating and broadband to the company as well as free office space and giving up a room in my house that I pay a mortgage on. This leads to a direct and real saving the company makes on office space. In light of this I believe I am not due a pay cut, but should receive an increase in salary in line with my increased costs, both direct and indirect."
...and the firm turns around and says, "On the other hand, you're saving £X by not commuting, so we'll also that that into account when reviewing your salary adjustment".

Electricty - a pound or two a day?
Heating - possibly similar amount?
Broadband - they chip in a percentage of your monthly bill, based on the hours you're online at work and the hours you're online outside of work. Interesting if your missus also works from home and her firm pays for it as well, you might be in profit on that one?
The home office - tricky one to work out but it will likely be a small room of less than 10 sq.m.?
If the company provide you with a car, does that get taken away if you're WFH and you get a (basic) hire car as needed? Taking company cars off people will save firms a fortune.
How do you take into account the time you'll save by not commuting? My daily commute there and back is (was) 20 minutes. Some people spend 4 or more hours a day commuting. Depending on how far one might commute and the associated cost I foresee some interesting discussions taking place.

It might be prudent for lower paid office workers to join a union?
 
...and the firm turns around and says, "On the other hand, you're saving £X by not commuting, so we'll also that that into account when reviewing your salary adjustment".

Good luck with that, didn't work the last time a company decided it wanted 10% pay cuts across the board.

Electricty - a pound or two a day?

Still my cost.

Heating - possibly similar amount?

Ditto.

Broadband - they chip in a percentage of your monthly bill, based on the hours you're online at work and the hours you're online outside of work. Interesting if your missus also works from home and her firm pays for it as well, you might be in profit on that one?

No they don't, they currently assume I have broadband, same as they assume I have a mobile. If I get rid of, they would need to supply.

The home office - tricky one to work out but it will likely be a small room of less than 10 sq.m.?

One room dedicated out of 6. That's a big chunk of the mortgage - 16.6% thank you.

If the company provide you with a car, does that get taken away if you're WFH and you get a (basic) hire car as needed? Taking company cars off people will save firms a fortune.

No company car, but if they are providing one that is not used at all, sure, remove it. It's cheaper to run your own anyway.

How do you take into account the time you'll save by not commuting? My daily commute there and back is (was) 20 minutes. Some people spend 4 or more hours a day commuting. Depending on how far one might commute and the associated cost I foresee some interesting discussions taking place.

As the length of my commute was never the companies business before (I don't get to work fewer hours because I travel more), why should it be now? Can't have it all ways.

Note: none of this applies to my job because I work for a decent employer.

It might be prudent for lower paid office workers to join a union?

It would, as a union would piss themselves laughing at a company trying to reduce salaries based on asking their employees to work from home.
 
Good luck with that, didn't work the last time a company decided it wanted 10% pay cuts across the board.

Electricty - a pound or two a day?

Still my cost.

Heating - possibly similar amount?

Ditto.

Broadband - they chip in a percentage of your monthly bill, based on the hours you're online at work and the hours you're online outside of work. Interesting if your missus also works from home and her firm pays for it as well, you might be in profit on that one?

No they don't, they currently assume I have broadband, same as they assume I have a mobile. If I get rid of, they would need to supply.

The home office - tricky one to work out but it will likely be a small room of less than 10 sq.m.?

One room dedicated out of 6. That's a big chunk of the mortgage - 16.6% thank you.

If the company provide you with a car, does that get taken away if you're WFH and you get a (basic) hire car as needed? Taking company cars off people will save firms a fortune.

No company car, but if they are providing one that is not used at all, sure, remove it. It's cheaper to run your own anyway.

How do you take into account the time you'll save by not commuting? My daily commute there and back is (was) 20 minutes. Some people spend 4 or more hours a day commuting. Depending on how far one might commute and the associated cost I foresee some interesting discussions taking place.

As the length of my commute was never the companies business before (I don't get to work fewer hours because I travel more), why should it be now? Can't have it all ways.

Note: none of this applies to my job because I work for a decent employer.

It might be prudent for lower paid office workers to join a union?

It would, as a union would piss themselves laughing at a company trying to reduce salaries based on asking their employees to work from home.
The home office 16.6% you say? But you only use it for work purposes for, say 1740 hours per year out of the 8760 hours in a year. So that's only 3.3%. Why should the firm pay for it when it's not being used for their purposes? For example.

Hence why everyone WFH should join a union, as many firms will doubtless try to stiff their staff. I know the ones that have paid my salary over the years couldn't be trusted to play the whiteman. Can I say that?
 

gung_hobo

Old-Salt
Working away from the office is absolutely the way to go for individuals in the short to very short term. When the premium for being prepared to pay to live close to the office (and to pay to commute to it) is no longer relevant or needed, the jobs will be outsourced abroad. Why would any company pay GBP60k (insert amount you think is sensible) to anybody when they can pay Dong 30k (a huge amount less) for somebody who will work four hours longer per day and not need death in service, pensions etc. Understandable English might be a little tricky sometimes, but companies will not care when they produce a tick box system to replace the dynamic and not completely controllable office. People in offices talk to each-other and circumvent the system sometimes!!!

This working from home lark is the biggest threat to the economy. Far more than all the other issues combined. Look at what UK PLC does. Take away the office and frankly it can mostly be done somewhere else, and it will be. Nobody is interested in quality any more, it is all about cost, well it is right up until it goes terribly wrong but by then it is too late.

Not mentioned is what will happen to the UK economy as London and South East house prices nose dive into the floor and below even there. Commercial rental companies will go bust, private and other landlords will also go bust removing houses from the market despite them being physically available.

This is only one possible outcome and only very sparsely described. Working from home might be the very long term answer, but it would be useful to know whether the question it answers is the right one, and is asked for the right and sound reasons.

GH
 
The home office 16.6% you say? But you only use it for work purposes for, say 1740 hours per year out of the 8760 hours in a year. So that's only 3.3%. Why should the firm pay for it when it's not being used for their purposes? For example.

Dear Home Office, thank you for your concern. As I am on call 24x7 I may be required to work at any hour of the day or night, and therefore the room is dedicated to business all hours throughout the year. Thank you.
 
Working away from the office is absolutely the way to go for individuals in the short to very short term. When the premium for being prepared to pay to live close to the office (and to pay to commute to it) is no longer relevant or needed, the jobs will be outsourced abroad. Why would any company pay GBP60k (insert amount you think is sensible) to anybody when they can pay Dong 30k (a huge amount less) for somebody who will work four hours longer per day and not need death in service, pensions etc. Understandable English might be a little tricky sometimes, but companies will not care when they produce a tick box system to replace the dynamic and not completely controllable office. People in offices talk to each-other and circumvent the system sometimes!!!

This working from home lark is the biggest threat to the economy. Far more than all the other issues combined. Look at what UK PLC does. Take away the office and frankly it can mostly be done somewhere else, and it will be. Nobody is interested in quality any more, it is all about cost, well it is right up until it goes terribly wrong but by then it is too late.

Not mentioned is what will happen to the UK economy as London and South East house prices nose dive into the floor and below even there. Commercial rental companies will go bust, private and other landlords will also go bust removing houses from the market despite them being physically available.

This is only one possible outcome and only very sparsely described. Working from home might be the very long term answer, but it would be useful to know whether the question it answers is the right one, and is asked for the right and sound reasons.

GH
Some of the firms I've worked for have off-shored some of the design work. It was consistently a disaster, as the drawings that came back ALWAYS needed considerable reworking to get them into a usable state. So much so that it would actually be cheaper and quicker to pay UK staff to do the work in the first place. "Right first time".

The greater threat to the economy is automation. Which firm has a typing pool these days for example? Other jobs will be lost to the microchip and with them peoples salaries and associated taxes.
 

Tool

LE
Why would any company pay GBP60k (insert amount you think is sensible) to anybody when they can pay Dong 30k (a huge amount less) for somebody who will work four hours longer per day and not need death in service, pensions etc. Understandable English might be a little tricky sometimes, but companies will not care when they produce a tick box system to replace the dynamic and not completely controllable office. People in offices talk to each-other and circumvent the system sometimes!!
GH
Best-shoring isn't the panacea that it has been made out to be. A lot of companies outsourced to India and are in the process of bringing most of the business back on-shore. Even with a saving of 60% per transaction, there is a hidden cost of lost goodwill by customers/clients. The upshoot is that the donkey work is done offshore, with the guidance and provinence held in the UK.
Quite substantial numbers of call centres are no longer in the "sub-continent".
 
The greater threat to the economy is automation. Which firm has a typing pool these days for example? Other jobs will be lost to the microchip and with them peoples salaries and associated taxes.

That has been said for decades and yet previous to the covid lockdown, employment (by actual numbers not percentage) in the UK was close to an alltime high.
 
just to reveal my total ignorance in such matters, what will happen to VA pensions if the company goes tits up?

Google Robert Maxwell
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
That has been said for decades and yet previous to the covid lockdown, employment (by actual numbers not percentage) in the UK was close to an alltime high.

The most immediate threat to low paid jobs is going to be the move to home working. I no longer:
  • Buy as much petrol - i'm not driving to work every day
  • Buy lunch at Morrisons - home made sandwich instead
  • Go for an after work drink with colleagues at the local pub - they live miles away
  • Need to buy so many work clothes - I can continue to wear scruffy ones at home.
Less people working in the city centre garages/supermarkets/pubs/clothing stores because they're doing less business.

Wordsmith
 

NSP

LE
Best-shoring isn't the panacea that it has been made out to be. A lot of companies outsourced to India and are in the process of bringing most of the business back on-shore. Even with a saving of 60% per transaction, there is a hidden cost of lost goodwill by customers/clients. The upshoot is that the donkey work is done offshore, with the guidance and provinence held in the UK.
Quite substantial numbers of call centres are no longer in the "sub-continent".
The biggest problem I have had dealing with a downtown Delhi call centre is Kevin, Simon or Patricia can't understand a word I am saying, despite enunciating clearly and precisely, and in some cases I can't make head nor tail of what they are saying through their impenetrable accents.

This has led to a stiff complaint each time to the UK corporate operator and with someone in the UK having to sort out what I 'phoned "customer services" in Delhi for, whether it be a problem with my broadband, bank, utilities, whatever. The problem is that the bank has reshored its call centre to Liverpool and my electricity provider to Glasgow so I still can't make head nor tail of what the buggers are saying. My broadband provider steadfastly clings to an Indian service centre and so is probably not saving much if most of its customers are having to get the UK end to solve their problems.
 
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