Vietnam discussion/outrageness

#1
So as not to turn the Anglo-American Hero Rick Rescorla Honoured thread into a slagging, outrage thread, I thought it would be best to continue the heated discussion here.
 
#2
jumpinjarhead said:
Cabana said:
jumpinjarhead said:
Cabana said:
jumpinjarhead said:
TheSpecialOne said:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277434/fullcredits#cast

the full list of cast & characters doesn't mention Rick Rescorla, but I doubt that Gibson had a say in that - Randall Wallace wrote the screenplay and you know what he did with the Braveheart story
. While I have no problem with warriors meeting after they are no longer enemies, I cannot forget or forgive the wanton murder by the enemy of wounded US soldiers in that battle and was frankly appalled that the author appeared to have totally forgotten that in playing Kumbaya with his North Vietnamese counterparts. I know 2 veterans of that battle and they say that they and a number of others have severed all contact with the author as a result of this.
What you forget is that you yanks were

A) Creating needless war in their country.
B) Doing the same thing to the Vietnamese (including women and children).

So all this "I cannot forgive them" pish is nonsensical. Yes, what they did was inexcusable, but what the US did was even more so.
Such comments are beneath you and contempt.
I would understand if the comment I addressed was referring to a N Vietnamese soldier who had actually committed such atrocities, but it wasn't which is why I stated what I did. Now despite the atrocities wrought upon them by the US, a majority of (from what I understand) former N Vietnamese soldiers would more then welcome their US counter parts into their homes.
My original comment stands. When you can show me facts in support of your overbroad, unfair and contemptible indictment of all US military forces in Vietnam I will of course retract my statement. The reality is that crimes occur in every conflict and no military is perfect due to the simple fact there are human beings involved.

There was no widespread, command supported pattern or practice of criminal behavior as you so irresponsibly allege. I say this categorically based on my personal experience and on numerous well researched sources (see for example ]Marines & Military Law in Vietnam — Trial By Fire by Gary D. Solis, a chronicle of the work done by US Marine judge advocates in Vietnam that demonstrates first hand that there was never any "policy" of allowing or condoning criminal conduct by Marines and when it occurred it was vigorously investigated and prosecuted. The US Army's efforts are recounted in Judge Advocates in Vietnam: Army Lawyers in Southeast Asia 1959-1975 by Frederic L. Borch III.

My comments in this thread were specifically directed toward the practice (not an isolated incident) of NVA troops murdering wounded US and South Vietnamese personnel on the battlefield. While I do not know (as you do not know) if any of the NVA veterans Major General Moore met afterward personally murdered US wounded, the practice was sufficiently notorious and those who committed these crimes were never brought to justice by the NVA such that the leaders, some of whom were in the group he met with, were legally responsible for the crimes of their men under the principle of command responsibility established in the Yamashita war crime tribunal after WWII.

For you to make the despicable slur against all American forces in Vietnam as you did diminishes the worth of any comments you have to make and calls into question your intellectual and moral clarity.
Before I start, please note my comments to TheSpecialOne, and I quote myself:
"Indeed you are correct, it was not my intention to tar all US soldiers with the same brush even though it sounded like I was, but as such jumpingjarhead should not tar all N. Vietnamese soldiers with the same brush and should understand that it was a small minority of them that carried out such evil deeds against an invader that was killing millions of their people."

So to clarify, it was not my intention to give the impression I was tarring all US forces with the same brush.

That said, you on the other had are tarring N. Vietnamese soldiers with the same brush. It is like saying all German soldiers were NAZI's and guilty of the genocide that some of their countrymen took part in during WW2, which we all know is a load of hog wash and the same can be said for N. Vietnames soldiers. So please get off your moral high horse and accept that many N. Vietnamese were trying to get rid of an invader of their country and a few were rotten eggs as were a few in the US military. To state
While I have no problem with warriors meeting after they are no longer enemies, I cannot forget or forgive the wanton murder by the enemy of wounded US soldiers in that battle and was frankly appalled that the author appeared to have totally forgotten that in playing Kumbaya with his North Vietnamese counterparts.
is tarring all former N. Vietnamese soldiers with the same brush and as such is pure ignorance and arrogance. Oh wait, I forgot I was addressing a yank and that is par for the course.
 

the_boy_syrup

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
Does it need another thread

It'll just desend into a UK V Septics slanging match
 
#4
Oyibo said:
jumpinjarhead said:
Cabana said:
jumpinjarhead said:
Cabana said:
jumpinjarhead said:
TheSpecialOne said:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277434/fullcredits#cast

the full list of cast & characters doesn't mention Rick Rescorla, but I doubt that Gibson had a say in that - Randall Wallace wrote the screenplay and you know what he did with the Braveheart story
. While I have no problem with warriors meeting after they are no longer enemies, I cannot forget or forgive the wanton murder by the enemy of wounded US soldiers in that battle and was frankly appalled that the author appeared to have totally forgotten that in playing Kumbaya with his North Vietnamese counterparts. I know 2 veterans of that battle and they say that they and a number of others have severed all contact with the author as a result of this.
What you forget is that you yanks were

A) Creating needless war in their country.
B) Doing the same thing to the Vietnamese (including women and children).

So all this "I cannot forgive them" pish is nonsensical. Yes, what they did was inexcusable, but what the US did was even more so.
Such comments are beneath you and contempt.
I would understand if the comment I addressed was referring to a N Vietnamese soldier who had actually committed such atrocities, but it wasn't which is why I stated what I did. Now despite the atrocities wrought upon them by the US, a majority of (from what I understand) former N Vietnamese soldiers would more then welcome their US counter parts into their homes.
My original comment stands. When you can show me facts in support of your overbroad, unfair and contemptible indictment of all US military forces in Vietnam I will of course retract my statement. The reality is that crimes occur in every conflict and no military is perfect due to the simple fact there are human beings involved.

There was no widespread, command supported pattern or practice of criminal behavior as you so irresponsibly allege. I say this categorically based on my personal experience and on numerous well researched sources (see for example ]Marines & Military Law in Vietnam — Trial By Fire by Gary D. Solis, a chronicle of the work done by US Marine judge advocates in Vietnam that demonstrates first hand that there was never any "policy" of allowing or condoning criminal conduct by Marines and when it occurred it was vigorously investigated and prosecuted. The US Army's efforts are recounted in Judge Advocates in Vietnam: Army Lawyers in Southeast Asia 1959-1975 by Frederic L. Borch III.

My comments in this thread were specifically directed toward the practice (not an isolated incident) of NVA troops murdering wounded US and South Vietnamese personnel on the battlefield. While I do not know (as you do not know) if any of the NVA veterans Major General Moore met afterward personally murdered US wounded, the practice was sufficiently notorious and those who committed these crimes were never brought to justice by the NVA such that the leaders, some of whom were in the group he met with, were legally responsible for the crimes of their men under the principle of command responsibility established in the Yamashita war crime tribunal after WWII.

For you to make the despicable slur against all American forces in Vietnam as you did diminishes the worth of any comments you have to make and calls into question your intellectual and moral clarity.
Cabana, there is absolutely no comparison between the actions of the NVA and the US Military in Vietnam. I have not studied Ia Drang in any detail, but as good Vietnam example of calculated killing of those unable to defend themselves you might like to look into what happened to South Vietnamese civilians in Hue.
Indeed, you may also like to look at the famous or should I say infamous My Lai (how many times was that incident repeated all over Vietnam?), people tied to and dragged behind US vehicles, children raped and shot (I believe the youngest accounted one was 13) by US soldiers, villages burned, chemical defoliant sprayed all over the shop, people chucked out of helicopters etc etc. Both the N. Vietnamese and the US were not whiter then white.
Yes, the N. Vietnamese soldiers committed atrocities, but that does not excuse the ones that were committed by the US in a country that they had no reason being in.

Of course it brings me to my original point, that Jumpingjarhead cannot tar all N. Vietnamese with the brush of all being wanton murderers and as such should not be appalled by a former US soldier enjoying time with former enemies who probably had nothing to do with the evil jjh speaks of.
 
#5
the_boy_syrup said:
Does it need another thread

It'll just desend into a UK V Septics slanging match
Probably not, but no doubt someone will be highly offended if the heated discussion goes on it that particular thread. I would also hope that it won't descend into a UK/SPAM slanging match as it is not really about that.
 
#6
I think the crucial differences between events like My Lai and the Hue massacre would be the numbers of victims, and the fact that NVA killings were planned and sanctioned at high level. So while I accept your point that not all NVA would have carried out atrocites, I think it would be fair to say that a far greater number of NVA at every level of command than Americans were involved in atrocities.
 
#8
Oyibo said:
I think the crucial differences between events like My Lai and the Hue massacre would be the numbers of victims, and the fact that NVA killings were planned and sanctioned at high level. So while I accept your point that not all NVA would have carried out atrocites, I think it would be fair to say that a far greater number of NVA at every level of command than Americans were involved in atrocities.
I totally agree with you.
 

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