Vietnam - could the US have dodged a bullet?

I never wrote anywhere that OSS Team Deer was complicit, you are making that up; and yes, the incident I mention happened in Laos where Sassi (not Stassi) operated.

The OSS team did not just treat Uncle Ho; it also shot at and killed some French soldiers that were after him.


Your words.

The OSS team that treated HCM for tuberculosis in August 1945 was 'Team Deer'.

Ho Chi Minh was nowhere near Laos in 1945. It would have been impossible for French soldiers to be 'after him''.

As I say, confused in time, place and also in things you have said.
 
That is not right. There were a plethora of non-communist nationalist parties who showed themselves better than ready to back Vietnamese Independence.

I was referring to international support, as I had hoped my reference to Wilson at Versailles made clear. The Soviet Union was, to the best of my knowledge, the only major international actor who supported Vietnamese independence. Even the 'communist' Chinese were equivocal at best, preferring Vietnam as a province of China to International Brethren.

European communists were equally lukewarm, indeed the reason Ho backed Stalin in the formation of the 'Third International' (ie the 'Communist International' or 'Comintern') was that the Comintern backed independence for colonial subjects whilst the Second International had preferred not to rock the European political boat by doing so.
 
I was referring to international support, as I had hoped my reference to Wilson at Versailles made clear. The Soviet Union was, to the best of my knowledge, the only major international actor who supported Vietnamese independence. Even the 'communist' Chinese were equivocal at best, preferring Vietnam as a province of China to International Brethren.

European communists were equally lukewarm, indeed the reason Ho backed Stalin in the formation of the 'Third International' (ie the 'Communist International' or 'Comintern') was that the Comintern backed independence for colonial subjects whilst the Second International had preferred not to rock the European political boat by doing so.

I know you like to be precise PF. I was merely pointing out that Communism was not the only bus on the route to independence.

One point. The Soviet Union did very little to support HCM in spite of the fact that he was Moscow trained and Comintern's go to man in SEAsia for the best part of two decades.

The USA cops flak from everyone for not recognising the Democratic Republic Of Vietnam that HCM unilaterally declared in September 1945, when he cynically quoted from the US declaration of Independence.

But neither did the USSR!

The USSR only gave diplomatic recognition to HCM's regime in 1950 and then only after Mao Tse Tung had done so.

The USSR contributed nothing either militarily or financially to the First Indochina war against the French. It was entirely a Chinese Communist sponsored affair.
 
You'e right that the USSR gave little help to Ho at first - pursuing its own strategic objectives, it was hoping for an electoral victory by French communists in France, and again didn't want to rock the boat.
 
You'e right that the USSR gave little help to Ho at first - pursuing its own strategic objectives, it was hoping for an electoral victory by French communists in France, and again didn't want to rock the boat.

Absolutely.

An electoral victory that looked very likely up until 1947 when the US made Marshall Plan aid contingent on the expulsion of the Communists from the government of the Fourth Republic.

As they should have.
 
The OSS team did not just treat Uncle Ho; it also shot at and killed some French soldiers that were after him.

Your words.

The OSS team that treated HCM for tuberculosis in August 1945 was 'Team Deer'.

Ho Chi Minh was nowhere near Laos in 1945. It would have been impossible for French soldiers to be 'after him''.

As I say, confused in time, place and also in things you have said.


You can turn things around any which way you want and nit pick as much as you want but facts remain: at least one French Jedburgh who operated alongside his British comrades of SOE's Force 136 was killed either by an OSS member or with an OSS member present and doing nothing to stop the killing from happening.
 
ah the delight of rabbit holes and obsessive tunnel views on history.

I see your disputed incident involving small figures, and raise you:

1 battleship sunk
1 battleship damaged
1 battlecruiser damaged
3 destroyers damaged
1 destroyer grounded
1,297 dead
350 wounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir
 
You can turn things around any which way you want and nit pick as much as you want but facts remain: at least one French Jedburgh who operated alongside his British comrades of SOE's Force 136 was killed either by an OSS member or with an OSS member present and doing nothing to stop the killing from happening.

I am not turning anything around. You are.

You stated:

The OSS team did not just treat Uncle Ho; it also shot at and killed some French soldiers that were after him.

You were asked for sources and you offered Bergot - which was completely irrelevant. That source does not support up your contention.

You then attempted to dissemble and divert wanting to 'agree to disagree'

You then claimed that Sassi supported your contention that the OSS team that treated Uncle Ho shot and killed French Soldiers who were after him, meaning - Ho.

You now acknowledge that even Sassi does not support your original contention either, as Sassi was in Laos and HCM never was.

An apology is in order. perhaps something along the lines of

"I let my knee jerk anti American sensitivities over ride my good sense and instead of attempting to weasel my way out of trying to justify a blatant lie I just should have admitted I was wrong in the first place. I apologise to the members of this fine forum for my error."
 
1) You wish

2) You don't even address THE point which is that a US OSS team was party to the death of a French Jedburgh officer of Force 136.

The rest is nothing but a smoke screen.
 
1) You wish

2) You don't even address THE point which is that a US OSS team was party to the death of a French Jedburgh officer of Force 136.

The rest is nothing but a smoke screen.
What was His Name? What day did this allegedly happen? what was his team?
 
Since you started this rather tasteless display of glee, here are a few other small figures that came as a direct result of the aforementioned incident:

-1 RN battleship sunk
-1 RN battlecruiser sunk
- 840 RN officers and sailors killed

Courtesy of the japanese air force taking off from French airfields in Indochina.

"In all the war, I never received a more direct shock". Winston Churchill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

Apologies, the comment was aimed at the proto-swift boaters that seemed to be banging drums about something you believe to be true, but they don't.

I'm suprised they haven't latched onto the pre-emptive strike option that was on offer. Since when have diplomatic niceties been, but a speed bump in the way of superpower aims and intents?


.
 
Apologies, the comment was aimed at the proto-swift boaters that seemed to be banging drums about something you believe to be true, but they don't.

I'm suprised they haven't latched onto the pre-emptive strike option that was on offer. Since when have diplomatic niceties been, but a speed bump in the way of superpower aims and intents?

.

OK, understood; I have to admit that, coming from you, I was quite surprised by this post.
 
What was His Name? What day did this allegedly happen? what was his team?

Name: LT Klotz, a Frenchman who was operating with British Major Kemp from the SOE as part of Lord Mountbatten's Allied Land Forces Para-Military Operations (ALFPMO)

Date: 28 September 1945

Culprit: a mix bag of Vietminh and OSS, the later, depending on accounts, either participating, encouraging or claiming neutrality and doing nothing to stop their Vietminh allies while Klotz was being killed.

According to Peter Neville, Colin Mackenzie, Force 136 Commander, blamed this murder on the OSS for encouraging the Vietminh to commit it.

http://www.amazon.fr/Britain-Vietnam-Prelude-Disaster-1945-46/dp/0415487471/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399663212&sr=8-1&keywords=Britain in Vietnam: Prelude to Disaster, 1945–46

I suppose both Peter Neville and Colin Mackenzie let "their knee jerk anti American sensitivities" speak when reporting on this sad event ?
 
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OK, understood; I have to admit that, coming from you, I was quite surprised by this post.

Not the best example I agree (and apologise again).

By highlighting the MEK incident (direct fratricide between UK and Vichy), I had hoped to put some perspective on the incident in dispute (indirect fratricide between OSS and Jedburgh), I had of course overlooked "bikeshedding", more formaly known as Sayre's Law
"In any dispute, the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake"
(could have been written for ARRSErs, rather than academics...)

One also can't help feeling that there is a degree of absolutism in someone who can label; prejudice, falsehood, wrong and an error as one and the same and simultaneously parenthesise it.
 
Name: LT Klotz, a Frenchman who was operating with British Major Kemp from the SOE as part of Lord Mountbatten's Allied Land Forces Para-Military Operations (ALFPMO)

Date: 28 September 1945

Culprit: a mix bag of Vietminh and OSS, the later, depending on accounts, either participating, encouraging or claiming neutrality and doing nothing to stop their Vietminh allies while Klotz was being killed.

According to Peter Neville, Colin Mackenzie, Force 136 Commander, blamed this murder on the OSS for encouraging the Vietminh to commit it.

http://www.amazon.fr/Britain-Vietnam-Prelude-Disaster-1945-46/dp/0415487471/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399663212&sr=8-1&keywords=Britain in Vietnam: Prelude to Disaster, 1945–46

I suppose both Peter Neville and Colin Mackenzie let "their knee jerk anti American sensitivities" speak when reporting on this sad event ?
Encouraging them to commit it? means no one actually saw an OSS team member shoot or Kill any frenchman but someone thought a OSS team Member may have said go kill the frenchie?


Opinion versus Evidence

Got it, another Myth
 
Name: LT Klotz, a Frenchman who was operating with British Major Kemp from the SOE as part of Lord Mountbatten's Allied Land Forces Para-Military Operations (ALFPMO)

Date: 28 September 1945

Culprit: a mix bag of Vietminh and OSS, the later, depending on accounts, either participating, encouraging or claiming neutrality and doing nothing to stop their Vietminh allies while Klotz was being killed.

According to Peter Neville, Colin Mackenzie, Force 136 Commander, blamed this murder on the OSS for encouraging the Vietminh to commit it.

http://www.amazon.fr/Britain-Vietnam-Prelude-Disaster-1945-46/dp/0415487471/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399663212&sr=8-1&keywords=Britain in Vietnam: Prelude to Disaster, 1945–46

I suppose both Peter Neville and Colin Mackenzie let "their knee jerk anti American sensitivities" speak when reporting on this sad event ?

OK, let me walk you through this one.

Your latest cite still has nothing to do with your original contention that:

The OSS team did not just treat Uncle Ho; it also shot at and killed some French soldiers that were after him.

The facts that are known are that the French Lieutenant Klotz was certainly killed on the 28th of September 1945. That is 26 days after the Japanese signed the surrender documents on the USS Missouri and 4 days after the Viet Minh had declared war on the French in Indochina and two days after the OSS agent Peter Dewey had been killed after being mistaken for a Frenchman.

This is called historical perspective. It is history; dates are important.

Another fact that is known is that Klotz's death occurred in Northern Thailand. Not as you originally claimed thousands of miles away in on the Tonkin/China border. And certainly not as you subsequently claimed with your Sassi citation in Laos.

You can see my concern regarding your apparent confusion with dates and places?

I also note that you did not link to Neville's work as you could have done because it further undermines your position. You do not share Neville's caution regarding the ambiguity of the circumstances.

You do not tell us for example that Neville states that:

The circumstances in which Klotz was shot are controversial and that McKenzie's report on the Klotz episode is inaccurate.

You have not linked to it for reasons that are obvious to me. I am happy to. Here it is.

Peter Neville, Britain in Vietnam: Prelude to Disaster, 1945-46, Page 107

As it happens I don't suppose that both Peter Neville and Colin Mackenzie let "their knee jerk anti American sensitivities" speak when reporting on this sad event. After reading what Neville actually wrote I only ascribe that tendency to you.

Nowhere in Neville's writing does he offer anything that supports your second contention that:

No, it was not french in-fighting at all, it was French Jedburgh along with some with Brits, all part of Force 136 being opposed and in some cases killed by OSS members defending Ho because then the US administration only saw the world through its anti colonialist lens

Your claim is that Klotz's unfortunate death was due entirely to US foreign policy decisions.

The murders of Klotz and OSS's Peter Dewey had nothing to do with the US's anti colonialism and everything to do with hatred directed towards the French due to the oppressive nature of their regime in Indochina.

Own it.
 
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Major Kemp, SOE, was there and reported what he saw, that is the US being involved in, if not guilty of the murder.

Force 136 Commander blamed the US attitude for the tragedy.

Mountbatten himself was shocked at the incident.

Nearly 70 years latter, you prefer to let your anti French prejudice speak rather than believe what first hand actors reported.

Your choice; strangeIy enough, I prefer to rely on the testimony of witnesses who were there than on the holier-than-thou attitude of a self-proclaimed Internet expert.

The murders of Klotz had everything to do with US's anti colonialism and support to the Vietminh who believed that since they were supported by a major power, they could get away with it.

Own it.
 
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Can you please post, impartial links to books or websites, that may back up your posts.
Failing that, this thread will descend into a biggus dickus contest. Being French, you will of course ignore the truth may be contary to your previous posts.
 
I suppose by "impartial", you mean written in English, preferably by Americans ?

I have provided ample links in the previous pages but they seem to be ignored by some as they do not correspond to their views.

As for ignoring the truth, this is a bit rich considering all I have written all along is backed by the testimony of British SOE officers who, like their French comrades, were disgusted by the way the OSS was actively cooperating with Vietminh. Being French, I have a tendency to believe what senior Special Forces officers on the ground write in their reports rather than tripe spouted 70 years latter by cover up teams.

FYI, and to give an idea of the level of US non-cooperation at the time, that is how the American called the South East Asia Command : "Save England's Asian Colonies"; says it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_East_Asia_Command
 
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