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Vichy France

Well you see my scanner is U/S otherwise I would have spent a couple of days scanning the books I have into my computer, of course I'm going to use Wiki and the history websites as REFs but I'm am giving References not just sprouting pro Frog crap, Martin Mickelson is a damn good researcher and has written a few things about SE Asia and the USAF in China
 
But you make no reference to the Letters that HCM wrote to Trueman, that the American ignored, and in fact only recently admited had ever existed, If the American's had kept the promises given to HCM by the Team Deer people the whole history of the Far East might have been a different Kettle of Fish. There was a recent program on one of the history Channels where they interviewed members of Team Deer and they all agreed. There has recently been some accusations that Vichy Airforce/navy technitions might have assisted the Japanese in the sinking of Force Z as revenge for Oran, Tan son nhut was a French air force base after all. but I got that info from a Japanese historian who has prooved to be not to kosher in the past.

Haven't got the time today to write everthing so here Vietnam during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not making this shit up, you just have to do the research, and Vichy prooved themselves to be some of the most untrustworthy barstewards in WW2, except of course for the Allies,

There is no doubt that Decoux was a Jap Puppet

A mission of vengeance: vichy French in Indochina in World War II - page 2 | Air Power History

That may all be true Jim but as others have already stated Indochina wasn't given back to the Vichy administration after the war, if for no other reason that it had pretty much been wiped out by the Japanese in 1945. It was the Nationalist Chinese (in the north) and British/Indian (in the south) forces who took over from the Japanese and then handed over to French troops sent out from Europe, commanded by General Leclerc, who as I am sure everyone here is aware was one of the original Free French leaders. I suppose though to Ho, Giap et al one Frenchman was the same as another. RP578 also made the point that the Vietnamese communists weren't exactly democratic. My question would be under whose authority did Team Deer make such promises, ones that could never be fulfilled?
 
It should also be noted that due to insufficient troop numbers fllowing the Japanese capitulation in these areas, including Malaya and the Dutch Indies, that Japanese troops were often given back their weapons and used as a police force until such time that suitable civil and military authority could be re-established. In a very real sense this could be seen by those formerly under the Japanese heel to be no real change from the status quo of the war years. A false liberation for some.
 
Sir Roden Cutler won the VC fighting our so called allies and if memory serves me correctly lost a leg in so doing. The French have always had far more in common with The Germans over the Rhine than with their neighbours over the Channel. Something Cameron should have thought of last week before becoming involved with Sarkozy, who will **** him faster than his eminantly fuckable wife.
 
Before calling names, put yourself in the Vichy French soldiers boots. They were attacked by the Commonwealth Forces in Mers El Kebir, Dakar, the Lebanon, Madagascar as well as at sea, in the air and on French soil (the bombing of industries working for the Germans caused many civilian casualties). On all those occasions, they were on the receiving end, they were not initiating the fight.

So, what is so surprising that they should defend themselves and what was then the French Empire and not just wait to be slaughtered, especially after having lost 1,297 comrades in Mers El Kebir ? Isn't a soldier trained to defend himself when under attack ?

Once again, the Mers El Kebir tragedy set in motion a terrible sequence of events that caused a deep rift between France and the UK with only one beneficiary : the Axis.
 
Before calling names, put yourself in the Vichy French soldiers boots. They were attacked by the Commonwealth Forces in Mers El Kebir, Dakar, the Lebanon, Madagascar as well as at sea, in the air and on French soil (the bombing of industries working for the Germans caused many civilian casualties). On all those occasions, they were on the receiving end, they were not initiating the fight.

So, what is so surprising that they should defend themselves and what was then the French Empire and not just wait to be slaughtered, especially after having lost 1,297 comrades in Mers El Kebir ? Isn't a soldier trained to defend himself when under attack ?

Once again, the Mers El Kebir tragedy set in motion a terrible sequence of events that caused a deep rift between France and the UK with only one beneficiary : the Axis.

Do you believe The British and The French can be real allies? As in The Crimea and in The Great War, reasons with answers please. If it truely can happen neither country need have much to fear, provided we both have the courage to face up to the Islamic problem in the midst of both of us.
 
Before calling names, put yourself in the Vichy French soldiers boots. They were attacked by the Commonwealth Forces in Mers El Kebir, Dakar, the Lebanon, Madagascar as well as at sea, in the air and on French soil (the bombing of industries working for the Germans caused many civilian casualties). On all those occasions, they were on the receiving end, they were not initiating the fight.

So, what is so surprising that they should defend themselves and what was then the French Empire and not just wait to be slaughtered, especially after having lost 1,297 comrades in Mers El Kebir ? Isn't a soldier trained to defend himself when under attack ?

Once again, the Mers El Kebir tragedy set in motion a terrible sequence of events that caused a deep rift between France and the UK with only one beneficiary : the Axis.

Most people probably think the French have few grounds on which to be outraged by Mers El Kebir. IIRC the French leadership had several days in which to agree to one of several possible face-saving options to put the fleet beyond the use of the Nazis. If French sailors died in their hammocks, it would be their own CoC's refusal to act that put them in harms way.

Parts of the French Empire were attacked, as they were likely to offer bases for Axis operations. Down to French political choices. Other nations refused cooperation with the Axis - Spain, Ireland, Sweden, etc.
 
4(T)

You were doing well until your last sentence. The examples you use are not fair as none of these countries had been invaded and occupied by Germany, so the pressures on them to cooperate were not the same.

It is easier to give the proverbial two fingers from one's battlements than standing face to face with one arm being forced up your back

Bugger - slow typing!!! Acknowledgement to Rampant.
 
Poor examples to use 4(T) none of those countries were at war with or (partially) occupied by Germany.

True, but they were either friendly with Nazi Germany (Ireland, Spain) or under threat of invasion due to strategic or economic value. Either way, they heeded warnings from the Allies to withhold any useful assistance to the Axis.
 
Before calling names, put yourself in the Vichy French soldiers boots. They were attacked by the Commonwealth Forces in Mers El Kebir, Dakar, the Lebanon, Madagascar as well as at sea, in the air and on French soil (the bombing of industries working for the Germans caused many civilian casualties). On all those occasions, they were on the receiving end, they were not initiating the fight.

So, what is so surprising that they should defend themselves and what was then the French Empire and not just wait to be slaughtered, especially after having lost 1,297 comrades in Mers El Kebir ? Isn't a soldier trained to defend himself when under attack ?

Once again, the Mers El Kebir tragedy set in motion a terrible sequence of events that caused a deep rift between France and the UK with only one beneficiary : the Axis.

Napoleon if (ageing) memory serves me correctly, once said all men of genius are French, on that basis Machaivelli must have been as much French as Italian. Sarkozy may have read The Prince, lets hope Cameron has.
 
True, but they were either friendly with Nazi Germany (Ireland, Spain) or under threat of invasion due to strategic or economic value. Either way, they heeded warnings from the Allies to withhold any useful assistance to the Axis.

Not the same, more pertinent examples could be taken from those countries that were occupied by or had declared war against the Axis and either resited or acquiesed to their control. Czechoslovakia would be an interesting example to use if you consider how the nation behaved during the war.
 
Your views seem to be as entrenched as they are on the French side of the Channel. Nobody in France forgets that Admiral Darlan had personnaly met Churchill around the 16 of June 1940 to make sure that a tragedy such as Mers El Kebir would not happen. He had given his word, the word of a man who had been decorated for bravery against the Germans on several occasions during WW1 and who had no love lost for them.

Churchill decided not to trust him and that he needed a spectacular act to cement the will of his people and to show his resolve. He decided the life of 1,297 French sailors was a small price to pay in the greater scheme of things. This slaughter was then celebrated as a big naval victory in the UK while Churchill made in the Commons a lacrymose display about Mers El Kebir that nobody took seriously.

The subsequent sequence of events (and previous signs of mistrust like the disarming of French soldiers landing in the UK from Dunkirk even though over 50% of those soldiers wnt straight back into action in France in June 1940) showed it was a very ill inspired decision since it firmly anchored France under the Nazi leadership and insured its armed forces would not only not fight against Germany but also resist any Brit and Free French attempt at siding with them until 1943.

By the end of the war, not a single French Navy ship had fallen under German control, just like Darlan, who after Mers El Kebir had become a rabid anglophobiac, had promised. Two had been raised by the Italians never to sail under their flag for lack of fuel and only to be sunk again by US bombers IIRC.

All I am saying is that before being judgemental about Vichy soldiers, think twice and think particularly about what events and what decisions started this regrettable sequence of events. Stones and glass houses spring to mind.
 
One thing that I hadn't seen before - heard it in an interview on the new MI6 history - was that the French intelligence services didn't tell the Germans that France (and Poland) had made huge strides towards cracking Enigma and that they'd shared this info with the UK: so maybe not everybody who stayed behind changed sides

Rather more than that - the French codebreakers continued to operate within Vichy and to cooperate with Bletchley Park. A Google for 'Bertrand' and 'Cadix' should drag up the story.

C_C
 
Not the same, more pertinent examples could be taken from those countries that were occupied by or had declared war against the Axis and either resited or acquiesed to their control. Czechoslovakia would be an interesting example to use if you consider how the nation behaved during the war.

Sure, I was looking at the broader political picture. I suppose I should have listed:

Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Greece, Poland, Netherlands, which all made provision for government-in-exile (lee Denmark) and which evacuated as many military assets to UK control as they could. Norway even evacuated manpower and partly demolished its coastal defences after occupation.
 
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