Veterans of Saddams army, police... where are they?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by KGB_resident, Jul 13, 2005.

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    'With such defenders of democracy we can be calm'

    I don't understand what in this case American Army (and British too) does in Iraq? Exactly the same henchmen use exactly the same methods but now in name of 'democracy'.
  2. The US/UK forces are there to help provide security and train the Iraqi police, not to controll them-if they want to torture people then they will, we can't shadow them at all times. Perhaps you should ask what is the Iraqi government doing about it, it's their country after all.
  3. So the Iraqi security services are continuing to use the techniques they learnt in the bad old days, when they were a Soviet client state?

    Evidently Russian training techniques are very effective, and retraining is going to take longer than expected.

    Now Sergei you have two choices; take immense offence at what I've just said and endeavour to maintain the moral high ground, or....

    accept that the world is not perfect and that every state has to reconcile what it would like to happen with the unpleasant realities of life, even your own dear motherland.
  4. Soviet client state? First of all, Soviet Union belongs to history. Do you mean that now US/UK have right to do something because Soviet Union did the same things?

    I think that rather Saddam as skilled dictator used Soviet Union in own interests. His regime wasn't communist. Saddam received Soviet weapons in exchange of his 'anti-American' position and that's all. Now multi-billion Iraqi debt is mainly written off. Btw many countries sold weapons to Saddam.

    There were no Soviet troops in Iraq. Americans say that they are training Iraqi police and special forces, so we see the result of the training. Have you any information that Soviet instructors trained Iraqi police and special forces? Or maybe it is your supposition? How can I discuss suppositions?

    The World is not perfect of course. Thank God British loses in Iraq are not huge. But Americans are being killed in Iraq on daily basis. In name of what? Do you think that their parents would be satisfied to hear that it is because the World is not perfect?
  5. So called 'Iraqi government' backed by American bayonets. Without them I won't bid even halfpenny for its long life.
  6. Well Sergei, interesting points. Absoloutely the Soviet Union has been consigned to the rubbish bin of history, it's legacy continues with your own dear president as former head of the KGB is higly visible throwback to the Soviet period, and his 'Russian' styled regional imperialism is pretty much a re-branded form of Soviet era policy, itself little more than a continuation of the pre-revolutionary Russian Empire.

    Modern Russia's eagerness to supply new AD systems to Iraq between GW1 and the current unpleasantness, albeit unrealised, suggests that your nations relationship with the region is a little more than 'unknowing dupe' of an Arab nationalist regime. France was a also a major supplier of arms and technology.

    No, Soviet troops were not present in large numbers in Iraq. But the large quantities of weapons and technology supplied to Iraq by Russia did come with free trainers, and I'm not referring to the ones made in Thai sweatshops, who passed on a wide variety of 'techniques'.

    It may also come as surprise to you to hear that it's not neccessary for Russian troops to enter other peoples' countries all the time, although I understand that this may be President Putin's preffered modus operandi, old habits die hard and all that. Large numbers of Iraqi officers were trained in Russia, pilots in particular. They also trained in France, and India.

    I doubt that Russian personnel trained Iraqi security forces at the lowest level. Why would they need to? Having trained the senior officers in all the latest 'security techniques' they had already created the institutional practices that would ensure torture and brutality were enshrined in the practice of internal security in Iraq. And for UK/US forces overcoming those deeply ingrained cultures of abuse is going to take more than a couple of years.

    So now the parents of the casualties among the British and American troops who are apparently perpetuating mistreatment and abuse are nonetheless suitable grist to the mill of your argument? Go moral relativism!

    As to your assessment of the Iraqi 'puppet' regime and it's longeivity without US military backing, well I guess that Russia's sparkling performance in Chechnya means you are extremely well placed to make such an assessment. Although given the rate at which the Chechens seem to get through Presidents if I were a 'puppet leader' I might prefer taking my chances with American bayonets backing me rather than Russian.

    Finally Sergei I'd like to point out that I agree with what I take to be the subtext of your original statement; which is that Iraqi securtiy forces MUST behave decently. However I bristle at moralistic 'liberal' sniping from the sidelines, especially in light of the less than dazzling record of Russian troops in similar situations, I realise that you as an individual are not reponsible for this, but the phrases 'Glass houses' and 'stones' do spring to mind.
  7. I wish I could put it like that Jack!
  8. Thank you for this replay.

    Mr.Putin was simply a lt.-colonel of KGB. He was a head of Russian FSB (incompartible with 'allmighty' KGB). Imperialism? Russia is relatively weak (from economical point of view) country with many internal problems. I doubt that mr.Putin plans external adventures. Namely US (maybe the UK?) have redundant money, Russia is not so rich.

    You compare modern Russia with Russian empire. Wars in Afhanistan, Iraq, Boer war, Suez war (and so on including India) - all they were imperialistic wars. Could you say that objectives of the UK now remains unchanged. I hope you see a big diffrence. If previously capture of territories and natural resourses could be called as honourable war for British interests then now it is impossible. Why do you think that Russia is an exception and that something that is true for the UK should be untrue for Russia?

    You asked a question and answered for it. Money, as ms.Marple used to say, and hope to return at least part of the debt. It is a business. If not you then your concurrent would win.

    It is a usual practice, nothing wrong with it.

    Not pres.Putin, rather Russian business, 'oil barons' use banks instead of tanks. In Lithuania, the bigest industrial object (oil refinery plant) was sold to American Williams for laughable sum (not to sell it to former 'occupants'). But Williams resold it to ... Russian Lukoil.

    I doubt that whoever from Iraqi security forces was trained in Soviet Union or by Soviets in Iraq. Traditions of oriental brutality and torture are very strong. Methods of torture were created centuries ago.

    In context of my previous phrase I agree with you. It is a very hard task to remade brains, culture, mentality. It require years and years (maybe even the whole generation). So the task was unrealistic from its start. Moreover example of Abu Ghraib was rather counter-productive.

    I thought that you present phrase 'the World is not perfect' as an universal argument that could explain all. Now I see that I was wrong. There was no need in my counter-example. From my point of view those who send not own children but kids from poor families to die in Iraqi desert are moral relativists.

    Chechnya is a big separate theme. But at least it is a part of Russian Federation (as NI is a part of the UK).

    You are not alone. As I'm aware son of one former British PM was involved in affair of this sort.

    'Spring to mind'. I use to say 'spring in mind'. So I was wrong, thank you for right form of this expression. From my side I wish to see as many 'stones' directed on Russian wrong-doing as possible. I think that they would be invaluable help for young and so fragile Russian democracy.

    Thank you for interesting post.

  9. I have always wondered if Sergei was a real russian or just another mindless troll

    now i know.

    only a real russian would be able to use such logic to justify the Rodina's actions as legitimate (cause it was done by us and not the US).

    good to see blind Russian Nationalism alive and well.

    oh by the way did you see this one:

  10. Hi!

    I'm puzzled. What do you mean?

    For example captain Ulman (with his men) killed 5 innocent civilians in Chechnya. Though he spent almost two years in custody now he was cleared by two court martials (decisions were made by jurymen). It is not the end of the story. Third trial is planning. However, from my point of view Russian justice failed to punish war crime. Is it a blind nationalism?

    As to mr.Kasyanov then he is well-known corruptioner. MP Alexander Khinshtein, famous (or infamous?) journalist from 'Moskovsky Komsomolets' (something like 'The Sun') simply dug info about his dirty affairs. If mr.Kasyanov is innocent then he would win in the court.