Ventilators causing more harm than good.

Is that because of lack of oxygen to the brain? If so - is there not a machine that can get hooked up to your veins that gets the blood - puts oxygen in it and then pumps it back into the body? Would this not work:

ECMO for chronovirus
There are very few ECMO machines available - they make ventilators look like...er...whatever the opposite of rocking-horse poo is. Plus you still need a vent to, gently, exercise the lungs whilst they they aren't being used
 
Amazing: media now reporting ventilators for CV19 mostly do more harm than good

In a previous thread Tim asked about Covid-19 ICU survival rates. This is dated but useful:

When we mechanically blow air into your damaged lungs faster and harder than humanly possible, ventilator-induced lung injury may result. Generally, for a person to tolerate the undertaking, we have to sedate them, leading to immobility and severe weakness. While sedated, the person cannot cough or clear their airway effectively, leading to superimposed bacterial pneumonia.
If only there was some setting you could adjust so you don't have "large tidal volume (VT) and/or high levels of positive end-expiratory pressure" so you're not "blowing air in faster & harder than humanly possible"
 

Blogg

LE
There are very few ECMO machines available - they make ventilators look like...er...whatever the opposite of rocking-horse poo is. Plus you still need a vent to, gently, exercise the lungs whilst they they aren't being used

As for sourcing them from Sweden. ..good luck with that now.
 

Mrsheeny

War Hero
I noticed a couple of days ago that a photo of the "first six NHS workers" to pass away were all middle aged BAME.

That could of course simply be a reflection of the demographic make up of the NHS. Still odd.

One wonders if there are any trends in victim types that are being under-reported due to one sensitivity or another? On the same topic, I wondered whether, for example, e-cig or recreational drug use was a factor in some of the younger "no underlying health problems" victims?
Maybe the glycerol is already blocking the air sacks? I remember a few years ago it was reported that vaping could cause pneumonia. I wonder if there is something in it?
 

triskele

Clanker
If only there was some setting you could adjust so you don't have "large tidal volume (VT) and/or high levels of positive end-expiratory pressure" so you're not "blowing air in faster & harder than humanly possible"
When you ventilate someone, you put pressure into the lungs. When you breathe, the lungs 'suck' air in, thus during inspiration (vent) the pressure is positive, breathing is neg. This becomes significant as the venous return to the chest is greatly helped by the negative pressure during normal breathing. Sick lungs requiring ventilation usually need some pressure, part because they are 'stiff' and part to get more oxygen in. This has a bad effect on venous return to the heart and the blood pressure may drop. You are now in a hard place, to follow the goal of oxygenation you now have a low blood pressure problem, which is equally serious as underperfusing organs will fail. There are various ventilator tricks, PEEP, CAP which I wont go into but all these have the same downside. In my experience full blown respiratory distress syndrome is a hard and difficult fight. This is just to keep the patient oxygenated, it does not treat the infection, and if you think you are winning, the patient then cyclically fails his organs, loses his biochemistry, and finally his life. It is draining the level of skill required, for days, without result. As the figures show, 50% of ventilated don't survive so it is not a good sign to hear someone has been put on a ventilator.
Apart from that, why all the panic about shortages, the death rate is not the ventilated death rate, a quick count of hospitals in London alone, each ITU having at least five, suggests no problem.
 
I saw this today:

 
I noticed a couple of days ago that a photo of the "first six NHS workers" to pass away were all middle aged BAME.

That could of course simply be a reflection of the demographic make up of the NHS. Still odd.
Where the NHS staff are Asian, there exists a disproportionately higher level of diabetes (with its associated comorbidities) amongst the South Asian community. Diabetes is a high additional risk factor for those contracting COVID-19. Some of of the highest levels of COVID-19 deaths in London are in the boroughs of Brent and Harrow, both of which have a high proportion of residents who are of South Asian origin.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
I have had my "call up " papers today to go back to NHS work. Included were some documents about ventilation. Truly scary stuff. Basically they detailed which ventilators (including CPAP) and the flowcharts in the way they are to be deployed. I think that I have seen how bad the situation really is now. It is much worse than I thought. Its not just ventilators it is the rest of the structures which are essential, such as the capacity of a hospital's oxygen supply. Things that I thought I would never see.
 
I noticed a couple of days ago that a photo of the "first six NHS workers" to pass away were all middle aged BAME.

That could of course simply be a reflection of the demographic make up of the NHS. Still odd.

One wonders if there are any trends in victim types that are being under-reported due to one sensitivity or another? On the same topic, I wondered whether, for example, e-cig or recreational drug use was a factor in some of the younger "no underlying health problems" victims?
I noticed that last week as did others. Yesterday's C4 News showed photo of latest 10 NHS dead - only one was white

Read a report in early March which said Black & Brown more likely to die and thought Gov'ts should be telling public so Black & Brown could be more careful. Guess that's racist, so say nothing and let them die
 

4(T)

LE
I noticed that last week as did others. Yesterday's C4 News showed photo of latest 10 NHS dead - only one was white

Read a report in early March which said Black & Brown more likely to die and thought Gov'ts should be telling public so Black & Brown could be more careful. Guess that's racist, so say nothing and let them die


Makes you wonder whether the Chinese bio-engineered it that way in order to help clear out their lebensraum in Africa...

(tinfoil optional these days)


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