Venezuela - coup d'état?

As I understand we speak about sufferings of civilians - due to collateral damage and due to war crimes.
As for post WW2 history then US armed forces are unconditional champion in war crimes and in killings due to 'collateral damage'. Let's recall relatively recent CIA directed bombings of tribal areas in Pakistan. How many killed boys and girls you could find there? Hundreds... In name of what?
You understand wrong, liar.
Let's talk instead about Russian complicity in Syrian Chemical warfare atrocities, annexation of the Crimea, invasion of Ukraine, shooting down of MH17, chemical warfare assasinations in the UK.
All of which are utterly indiscriminate war crimes.
 
As I understand we speak about sufferings of civilians - due to collateral damage and due to war crimes.
As for post WW2 history then US armed forces are unconditional champion in war crimes and in killings due to 'collateral damage'. Let's recall relatively recent CIA directed bombings of tribal areas in Pakistan. How many killed boys and girls you could find there? Hundreds... In name of what?
Deaths caused by Russian acts & interference post WW2 far outweigh those caused by the US.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Let's talk instead about Russian complicity in Syrian Chemical warfare atrocities,
Syrian war was started by Westies. It is their responsibility. I dont believe in "over-defense".

annexation of the Crimea,
There was peaceful reunion.

invasion of Ukraine
Lie. DPR and LPR are not Ukraine

shooting down of MH17,
"Tragic, but understandable accident", highly likely it was shoot down by Junta forces..

chemical warfare assasinations in the UK.
"The Russian Poisoners" obviously is just a stupid British TV show, nothing more.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Talking about civilian suffering. British civilians will suffer after No-deal Brexit. Will it be legitimate reason for EU-Army invasion in the UK?
 
As I understand we speak about sufferings of civilians - due to collateral damage and due to war crimes.
As for post WW2 history then US armed forces are unconditional champion in war crimes and in killings due to 'collateral damage'. Let's recall relatively recent CIA directed bombings of tribal areas in Pakistan. How many killed boys and girls you could find there? Hundreds... In name of what?
Seriously? Has Russia admitted any CivCas in Syria yet? Or is it still “no civilian casualties”? Millions displaced, hundreds of thousands dead and yet no CivCas admitted let alone investigated by ‘Putin’s agitprop’
 
Seriously? (1) Has Russia admitted any CivCas in Syria yet? (2) Or is it still “no civilian casualties”? (3) Millions displaced, hundreds of thousands dead and yet no CivCas admitted let alone investigated by ‘Putin’s agitprop’
1) No.
2) There is no any reliable information about it.
3) Russia doesn't bear resopsibility for displaced, died. Maybe Washington bears responsibility? Raqqa turned into Stalingrad after US bombings that caused deaths and refugees. According to your logic the USA is responsible.
 
1) No.
2) There is no any reliable information about it.
3) Russia doesn't bear resopsibility for displaced, died. Maybe Washington bears responsibility? Raqqa turned into Stalingrad after US bombings that caused deaths and refugees. According to your logic the USA is responsible.
Really? Your 'assault' on Aleppo left no CivCas? Not one? How ridiculous are you?
 
Does anyone here know anything about Venezuela prior to these current problems? I've heard it's got the highest murder rate in the world outside of war zones. Can it extract itself from this decline?
 
Syrian war was started by Westies. It is their responsibility. I dont believe in "over-defense".


There was peaceful reunion.


Lie. DPR and LPR are not Ukraine


"Tragic, but understandable accident", highly likely it was shoot down by Junta forces..


"The Russian Poisoners" obviously is just a stupid British TV show, nothing more.
Was it a peaceful reunion in 1939 when Russia teamed up with the Nazis to invade Poland?
 
Does anyone here know anything about Venezuela prior to these current problems? I've heard it's got the highest murder rate in the world outside of war zones. Can it extract itself from this decline?
Three phases of homicidal violence in Venezuela
There’s a few articles out there:
Venezuela was considered one of the least violent countries in Latin America, however by 2010 it was among the countries with the highest homicide rate. This article analyzes the evolution of homicides in Venezuela between 1985 and 2010 and proposes the existence of three stages which correspond to trends in social and political institutions of the country. The first from 1985 to 1993, characterized by the looting of 1989 and the coups d'état of 1992, when for the first time the homicide rate rose from 8 to 20. The second phase from 1994 to 1998 was a recovery period of the institutional and political stability when the homicide rate remained constant at around 20. The third phase began in 1999 with the H Chavez government and the institutional destruction that comes with the Bolivarian revolution and caused an increase in the rate of 20 to 57 homicides per 100 thousand inhabitants. This article argues that the explanation for the changes in the phases is to be found in the transformation of social and political institutions.
 
Does anyone here know anything about Venezuela prior to these current problems? I've heard it's got the highest murder rate in the world outside of war zones. Can it extract itself from this decline?
El Salvador supposedly has the highest rate, by a long shot. That whole part of the world though, from Venezuela to Columbia, El Salvador, Guatamala and Honduras and large chunks of Mexico are in the midst of a violent crime melt down and general collapse in social order which the governments seem unable to do much about. Brazil has been getting pretty bad too. I'm told to take the official murder rates of any of those countries with a grain of salt as much crime doesn't get recorded, especially in the slums. Finding another pile of decapitated bodies in Mexico isn't really even big news any more.

The flood of refugees from El Salvador, Guatamala and Honduras up into Mexico and then on into the US is supposedly to a large extent driven by people wanting to escape from the violence. The Americans are bricking it not only because they don't want smelly foreigners, but also because they fear these people will bring the violence with them.

Drug gangs get blamed for a lot of it, but it just seems so widespread and affects so many people that it seems there must be more to it than that. Some people say its driven by poverty and despair, but that doesn't explain what is happening over wide swaths of Mexico where life has been improving rapidly. I've done business in Mexico in industrial areas that were fairly prosperous by Mexican standards, but you didn't have to go far to find areas that were no go zones even for the police travelling in groups.

I worked on a project with someone from Caracas about ten years ago or so. There are massive social divisions in the country and have been for more than a century and even longer. This is what is driving the politics and producing Chavez and his successors, rather than the reverse.

In Venezuela it has long been like there were two versions of the country - fairly comfortable middle and upper classes of people with good jobs in the "modern" economy, and the poor, who lived in the slums on the hills above Caracas and lived day to day with no hope of anything getting better for themselves or their children. Crime in the hill slums was omnipresent and violent. The people in the better off parts of the city below didn't care about that so long as the police kept the slum dwellers up in the slums where they belonged.

In Venezuela of course they have immediate problems caused by price controls and inflation. There is no more sure or rapid way to wreck an economy than by inflation and price controls, Weimar Germany being a good example of that.

Removing those however isn't going to remove the underlying causes, and they do nothing to explain the general social melt down in the other countries of the region.

Mexico has elected a new president who has promised to make big changes in the way that Mexico is run. His opponents accuse him of being another Chavez while others compare him to Jeremy Corbyn (I'm not sure that's much of an improvement). Either way he seems to be on a collision course with the Americans.

To say that all the problems in Venezuela started with Chavez and will go away when and if Maduro falls is to ignore both Venezuelan history as well as what is happening in the wider region. I'm not sure there are any easy answers, in fact I'm positive there aren't.
 
Has anyone here been there? What's it like and what are the people like?
Yes, about 6 years ago.

Beautiful, dangerous, poor. On the backpacker/tourist net the scams and robberies were what most people talked about. (E.g. kidnap a couple at the airport. They are separated by villains, various. He empties his wallet and bank accounts at gun point, “‘Cos we’re gunna murder/rape/**** your girlfriend.” He’s then dumped somewhere near the airport. She, meanwhile is being told the same. She empties her bank accounts. They meet again at the airport, where, if they’re lucky, the police let them keep their clothes. A few days begging from others at the airport whilst the embassy sorts out emergency documents.)

The Venezuelan people I meet on a daily basis are exactly the same as everyone else in LatAm. Working hard for low wages, exploited by bosses whose only objective is profit. The Vz’s are past caring about Maduro, they just want him out. Those that have managed to get good jobs probably won’t ever go back. Those that have shit jobs just want him and his murderous scum out. They really, REALLY don’t care if the USA comes in mob-handed or not. They just want Maduro out.

They have exactly the same preoccupations as you; their family, health, education, money etc. One big difference here is that there is no effective social security system as you would understand it from a UK/European perspective. Get cancer = die, in various time scales at various levels of pain. If you arrive at a hospital without insurance, or cash, you WILL be refused treatment. State hospitals are seriously under-resourced, the staff low paid. (Peruvian state-hospital doctors are regularly on strike because they haven’t been paid, again.)

(There will be a couple of Vz’s at a works do I’m going to in a couple of hours, I’ll try to ask them later, when they’ve had a glass of wine or two.)

I shall qualify some of the above; I’ve been in LatAm for just over 11 years. I’ve visited every country here both as a tourist and as a tour guide. I’m fluent in Castillano (Spanish) and have a large circle of friends, but obviously I can’t point you to verifiable facts on websites that the more fastidious of you would want.
 
@terminal & @Sammer thanks for your posts. Some really interesting insights there. Sammer, verifiable facts is not what I'm about. Would appreciate a glimpse into what your Vz friends express about their country.
 
(...) The Venezuelan people I meet on a daily basis are exactly the same as everyone else in LatAm. Working hard for low wages, exploited by bosses whose only objective is profit. The Vz’s are past caring about Maduro, they just want him out. Those that have managed to get good jobs probably won’t ever go back. Those that have shit jobs just want him and his murderous scum out. They really, REALLY don’t care if the USA comes in mob-handed or not. They just want Maduro out. (...)
From what I understand the polarisation in Venezuela is such that there are the people who were absolutely opposed to Chavez/Maduro and did everything they could to unseat them from day one, and then there are the people who will never stop believing in them. There's no middle ground. What you hear about them depends on what elements of society you talk to.

From this perspective Maduro will go not when his supporters stop believing in what he stands for, but rather when they decide to stay home rather than coming out to support him.
 
I basically agree with what you’ve said @terminal . I think he’ll do a Chavez, die on the throne, as it were. As the head of one of the biggest and most well armed drug trafficking gangs, he won’t leave peacefully.

How he dies, or how quickly he dies, depends on more than just Vz popularity.
 

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