Venezuela about to go down the tubes...a lesson for Corbyn and the Labour Party perhaps?

The problem that Marx created for himself was that he defined wealth in terms of capital and ownership. Eliminate ownership and you eliminate classes and wealthy classes exploiting others.
But wealth existed before Marx’s industrial economy, and is about access to and control of the means of production, distribution and exchange, title is just an outward sign of that.
While wealth creates power, power also creates wealth. If there is a ruling class, there is wealth attached to it. Socialist ruling classes usually don’t leave themselves short of the good things in life and when you have access to the state dacha and caviar supply, it really doesn’t matter if you have a piece of paper giving you title. Even if you find a frugal-living socialist despot, it’s a red herring. The problem socialist despots have is that they cleave to a system that views the better off as cows to be milked but when they are gone, do not have any coherent system for generating more moola because the people who might do are inherently evil and must be discouraged. You end up forcing the have-nots (now everybody) to sacrifice more and more for the “Common Good”. Repeatedly dividing the pie is a race to the bottom. People have to be controlled to prevent them accumulating and coerce them to contribute. Eventually you eliminate all but one form of wealth: Orwell spotted it. Power.
The thing that is also ignored is that if it wasn't for these "wealthy classes" he wouldn't have been able to sponge his way across Europe thinking up ideas that went against the very system that allowed him to sit on his backside fantasising and therefore not be productive in any way.

He would not have lasted long in his "utopian society", which shows how flawed the notion of Socialism was from it's very conception
 
Paging @DaManBugs. He'll be pleased to explain Venezuela wasn't true socialism and wouldn't have failed it it was.

So many failed socialist states around the world. Still, on the 1,001st attempt, I suppose one of them will work out how to run true socialism.

Wordsmith
Labour have to be lucky only once, Tories have to be lucky every time. I think that's how it went but I may have got the wrong groups.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
I rate the observation that if socialism was in any way viable the Germans in GDR would have worked it out.
That they couldn't settles that argument pretty conclusively I think.
But it wasn't for the want of trying. There were a few factors at work at the time of which you may be unaware.

Firstly, Walther Ulbricht, the GDR leader, was very interested in building up a cult around himself in the style of Joe Stalin. At the same time, veteran East German Communists were working on a number of policies that would have given the fledgling GDR a much better start, after the harrowing time they had just after the war.

Your man Ulbricht started to get a bit uptight about that because he though he was being upstaged. So he bubbled them all to Stalin, who ordered them removed from office (but not assassinated - although some of them met an untimely end). Basically, what Ehrlich, Hinrichs, Böttcher and Co wanted was far more autonomy for agricultural and industrial production, so that light industry could be developed alongside heavy industry, and not after it - as Ulbricht wanted to do. The system would have left management and workers much more in control of their enterprises, but would also have provided incentive to improve it, with reciprocal arrangements with companies in Poland, Czechoslovakia and also West Germany and France.

That plan fetched up against the Stalinist centralised system and was thus vetoed. However, there's a very good chance that it could have succeeded. It finally died the death in 1971, when Erich Honecker did the dirty on Ulbricht and bubbled him to the Soviets for not toeing the Stalinist line, since Ulbricht had finally seen the error of his ways and was willing to instigate some long-needed reforms. That, on the other hand, was just what Honecker didn't want because he was also trying to make himself into a cult figure* after the passing of Uncle Joe in 1953.

Basically, it was all about personal egos and status and had very little to do with actually doing the optimum for the GDR population.

*Interesting side-note. Between 1975 and 1982, Honecker had three high concrete bases poured in Alexanderplatz in preparation for a statue of himself being erected there. Each time, the bases were blasted to shite in a very short time by disgruntled GDR citizens who didn't want or need a cult leader. Honni gave up on the idea in the end.

MsG
 
Sorry to drag this back vaguely to the topic, but:
600,000 Bpd At Risk As Venezuela Delays The Inevitable | OilPrice.com

But Caracas is running out of time and money. On Thursday, President Nicolas Maduro went on state TV and said that he would seek a restructuring of Venezuela’s debt. But he sowed some confusion by using different words for what he was seeking. As Bloombergreported on Friday, he switched between “refinancing,” a more benign form of negotiation with bondholders, and a “restructuring,” a more technical term that tends to be associated with a default and stiffing creditors.
Uh oh...

Venezuela and PDVSA owed a $1.1 billion payment on November 2, and Maduro promised to meet that obligation. However, he said it would be the last time it paid creditors in full, and moving forward Venezuela wanted some sort of debt relief
Either way, it's going to end badly.

But there is most likely no way out, at least in the long run. According to Capital Economics, Venezuela and its entities owe a combined $65 billion in bonds…and it has less than $10 billion in foreign exchange to work with, much of which is in non-liquid assets. It’s hard to see how the maths could ever work out in Caracas’ favor. According to the credit default swap market, investors put the odds of a Venezuelan default within the next five years at 97 percent.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Basically the economy has been royal fornicated by epic mismanagement for years. I would imagine there are banks and hedge funds trying to dump Venezuelan debt like there's no tomorrow and finding few takers.

Wonder if a few banks will go under when Venezuela does?

Wordsmith
 
Basically the economy has been royal fornicated by epic mismanagement for years. I would imagine there are banks and hedge funds trying to dump Venezuelan debt like there's no tomorrow and finding few takers.

Wonder if a few banks will go under when Venezuela does?

Wordsmith
The smart ones will have off loaded debt sometime ago. Without looking I would hazard a guess that new lines of credit have also been very hard for Venezuela to come by for a while too, perhaps the loans sharks and their exorbitant interest rates are now the only port of call, pay up on time though to avoid the knuckle dusters.
 
Just a thought, how can the rich pay more tax than the rest of us, when they are hiding all their money
Because they have more money to start with?
 
Once again, a supporter of rich tax avoiders uses a tired old cliche.
Just a thought, how can the rich pay more tax than the rest of us, when they are hiding all their money in tax havens?

Because, unlike you, they are employed, well remunerated and can afford to buy things.....like houses, flash cars......food :)
 
Once again, a supporter of rich tax avoiders uses a tired old cliche.
Just a thought, how can the rich pay more tax than the rest of us, when they are hiding all their money in tax havens?

Oh, and again, any evidence that they have done anything illegal?? No, **** off then :)
 
But it wasn't for the want of trying. There were a few factors at work at the time of which you may be unaware.

Firstly, Walther Ulbricht, the GDR leader, was very interested in building up a cult around himself in the style of Joe Stalin. At the same time, veteran East German Communists were working on a number of policies that would have given the fledgling GDR a much better start, after the harrowing time they had just after the war.

Your man Ulbricht started to get a bit uptight about that because he though he was being upstaged. So he bubbled them all to Stalin, who ordered them removed from office (but not assassinated - although some of them met an untimely end). Basically, what Ehrlich, Hinrichs, Böttcher and Co wanted was far more autonomy for agricultural and industrial production, so that light industry could be developed alongside heavy industry, and not after it - as Ulbricht wanted to do. The system would have left management and workers much more in control of their enterprises, but would also have provided incentive to improve it, with reciprocal arrangements with companies in Poland, Czechoslovakia and also West Germany and France.

That plan fetched up against the Stalinist centralised system and was thus vetoed. However, there's a very good chance that it could have succeeded. It finally died the death in 1971, when Erich Honecker did the dirty on Ulbricht and bubbled him to the Soviets for not toeing the Stalinist line, since Ulbricht had finally seen the error of his ways and was willing to instigate some long-needed reforms. That, on the other hand, was just what Honecker didn't want because he was also trying to make himself into a cult figure* after the passing of Uncle Joe in 1953.

Basically, it was all about personal egos and status and had very little to do with actually doing the optimum for the GDR population.

*Interesting side-note. Between 1975 and 1982, Honecker had three high concrete bases poured in Alexanderplatz in preparation for a statue of himself being erected there. Each time, the bases were blasted to shite in a very short time by disgruntled GDR citizens who didn't want or need a cult leader. Honni gave up on the idea in the end.

MsG
Found the flaws in your argument.

No fee.
 
Its kind of ironic that your user name also happens to be the name of a well know product used in laundering of a different kind. :police:
I take that rather feeble attempt at deflection means that you are still unable to offer any evidence of illegal activity? Nope, carry out jogging off the nearest cliff if you would be so kind.
 
I take that rather feeble attempt at deflection means that you are still unable to offer any evidence of illegal activity? Nope, carry out jogging off the nearest cliff if you would be so kind.
Not when the tax dodgers have members of goverment in tax havens changing laws to facilitate even more tax dodging. Remember that next time a hospital is closed down due to lack of funds, or if someone steals your car as there is not enough plod around to act as a deterrent due to police cuts.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top