Venezuela about to go down the tubes...a lesson for Corbyn and the Labour Party perhaps?

No jibe taken or inferred.

I was particularly responding to 'The linear version of Extreme Right wing is no state control to Extreme Left wing is total state or central control works for me.'.

However, I disagree that the extreme of Right Wing is no state control and that the extreme of Left Wing is full state control. I would have put Fascism (and Nazism) on the extreme Right, but that is a state controlled system. Conversely, Anarchism is an extreme Left position (it's a form of Socialism) which calls for no state control.

That's just one of the reasons that I do not like the linear system. The circular system is not perfect, but it does show how, in the main, Left and Right extremist positions are closer in ideology than they would like to admit. Putting a fag paper between Stalin and Hitler's positions is only possibly because of the nationalist/internationalist stands.
I think we have disagreed on this before, no problem.
I simply see little difference between Stalin and Hitler (neither did Hitler) and regard both as extreme Left wing.
 
However, I disagree that the extreme of Right Wing is no state control and that the extreme of Left Wing is full state control. I would have put Fascism (and Nazism) on the extreme Right, but that is a state controlled system. Conversely, Anarchism is an extreme Left position (it's a form of Socialism) which calls for no state control.
I would disagree with that

Stalin, Kim Mau Authoritarian Dictators on the Left (Authoratarian left)
Pinochet - Gallteri Authoritarian Dictators on the right (authoritarian right)

Hitler - wasn't far right economically either - whilst being extremely authoratarian
So im not sure left right is really the way to define Libertarian v authoritative governance

I would say that typically big government is more a product of left wing governments than right wing and small government tends to be more the rights aims - but that's not necessarily a function of state authority - rather reducing the tax burden and leaning towards laissez faire

In reality its Extreme Libertarian - and whilst im sure we all agree most its adherents appear to be economically far left its not necessarily a requirement.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
That's rather my point - Left and Right as linear concepts don't work when applied to governments in the real world. To use an oft-used phrase, 'IMCTT' (It's More Complicated Than That). We see the phrases 'left wing/right wing' bandied about, but they are usually used as a way of attacking your opponent. We know what they mean when we use them or hear them , but they aren't really accurate measures of political doctrine.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
That's rather my point - Left and Right as linear concepts don't work when applied to governments in the real world. To use an oft-used phrase, 'IMCTT' (It's More Complicated Than That). We see the phrases 'left wing/right wing' bandied about, but they are usually used as a way of attacking your opponent. We know what they mean when we use them or hear them , but they aren't really accurate measures of political doctrine.
I would argue that politics is circular.

On one side of the circle you have moderate governments - be they of the loft or the right. Diametrically opposite - and close relation to each other - you have hard line fascist or communist governments.

I have said in close relation to each other because, although they are ideologically different, the practical effects are the same:
  • Repression
  • Secret police
  • Concentration camps/gulags
  • Frequent state sponsored executions
  • State sanctioned torture
  • Stare controlled economy
  • Economic malaise
  • State controlled press
  • Etc, etc.
Wordsmith
 
I would disagree with that

Stalin, Kim Mau Authoritarian Dictators on the Left (Authoratarian left)
Pinochet - Gallteri Authoritarian Dictators on the right (authoritarian right)

Hitler - wasn't far right economically either - whilst being extremely authoratarian
So im not sure left right is really the way to define Libertarian v authoritative governance

I would say that typically big government is more a product of left wing governments than right wing and small government tends to be more the rights aims - but that's not necessarily a function of state authority - rather reducing the tax burden and leaning towards laissez faire

In reality its Extreme Libertarian - and whilst im sure we all agree most its adherents appear to be economically far left its not necessarily a requirement.

Also anarcho capitalists could be considered extreme right wing and anti authoritarian anti government, aka a form of extreme libertarians
 
Stalinists want to genocide you if your a kulak it's political not that it makes it any better just there's a logic behind twisted and evil but a rational reason the Jews weren't a threat niether were gypsies or homosexuals. To the nazis

Nazis want to genocide the impure regardless of class Communists didn't ignore the laws of physics unlike the Nazis who tried to get aryan physics to work.
 
Stalinists want to genocide you if your a kulak it's political not that it makes it any better just there's a logic behind twisted and evil but a rational reason the Jews weren't a threat niether were gypsies or homosexuals. To the nazis

Nazis want to genocide the impure regardless of class Communists didn't ignore the laws of physics unlike the Nazis who tried to get aryan physics to work.
Is English your first language? 'Cos that gave me a headache trying to decipher that lot.

What you conveniently seem to forget was that the Great Terror ( 1936-38 ) instituted by Stalin, focused mainly on Soviet citizens and was a 2-hander designed to consolidate power and remove political opponents (real or imagined). Various estimates of those executed/murdered during this period alone come to a figure between 950 000-1.2m.

Whichever way you try to spin it, they were 2 cheeks of the same bum.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
Stalinists want to genocide you if your a kulak it's political not that it makes it any better just there's a logic behind twisted and evil but a rational reason the Jews weren't a threat niether were gypsies or homosexuals. To the nazis

Nazis want to genocide the impure regardless of class Communists didn't ignore the laws of physics unlike the Nazis who tried to get aryan physics to work.
But the Communists did refute the laws of biology., see Trofim Lysenko's Wiki.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
If Maduro and his global allies really believe that he is the rightful president, voted in through democratic means, then they ought to be delighted that he has been given another chance to prove his popularity with an open vote. After all, a victory would silence his critics and put his opponents in a very embarrassing position.

The key point, of course, is that the election must be a fair one. That doesn't mean bias towards his opponents and it doesn't mean bias towards Maduro. No ballot-box stuffing, no banning certain candidates, no 'administrative difficulties' that restrict voting in areas where one candidate is more popular, and no disappearing ballot boxes.

It isn't a difficult concept but it might be unpopular with world leaders for whom such elections set a dangerous precedent with their own people.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
You failed to mention the reasons why the opposition asked the UN to stay away. Maduro had already showed that he was running a rigged election - jailing and barring opposition figures from standing. If you are the only serious candidate then it is likely that you will win.

The Venezuelan opposition rightly did not want Maduro to be able to claim that the election was legitimate 'because UN observers were present'. They therefore asked the UN to stay away. The UN did attend and stated that they did not certify the election as being fair.

Maduro obviously ran a rigged election, one which the UN did not recognise. He now has the chance to win legitimately.
 
There is a Manduro video being promoted by Anonymous and shared by lefty SJWs on social media, where pretty much he claims everything is a US conspiracy

Socialists seem to lap it up of course, as for Anonymous well top trolling on their part, but their are enough idiots believing it out there
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
With the USA sending aid to Venezuela via neighbouring countries, US 'mobilises' aid for Venezuela, and Maduro claiming that it is just a pretext for a US armed intervention/invasion, I wonder what the next few days will bring.

The deadline for Maduro to announce new presidential election runs out within hours, leaving the country on the verge of some serious domestic issues. Trump has not ruled out sending troops, (Trump rejects meeting Maduro, says sending U.S. troops to Venezuela 'an option' | Reuters) but that is not the same as saying that he plans an armed intervention.

With Russia already sending troops, and Columbia's Marxist guerrillas vowing to fight any US troops landed there (as they would, obviously), it will be interesting to see how this new Cold War face-off ends.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
Well, the (almost) inevitable has happened and the European countries have officially recognised Guaidó as the legitimate man in charge in Venezuela. That presumably means that Venezuelan gold reserves in London (and elsewhere in Europe perhaps?) are effectively frozen from Maduro's control as he is no longer recognised as the president. It also means that his empty calls for negotiations are now the hollow echoes of a man without the power to hold negotiations on Venezuela's future on the global stage.

Much blustering from Maduro and Putin, as might be expected, with Maduro saying that he 'couldn't rule out the possibility' of a civil war. I have no idea whether he means that as a threat to the protestors or whether he is admitting that he has lost control, I suspect that he means the former but that the latter is more realistic.
 
Well, the (almost) inevitable has happened and the European countries have officially recognised Guaidó as the legitimate man in charge in Venezuela.
With the exception of Italy in the EU, so no statement of solidarity there, and while EU - Italy means most of NATO too, Turkey is (unsurprisingly) not 'on message', so no 'united in solidarity' statement from there either.

EU nations back Guaido as Venezuela leader

Vlad must be well pleased at the dissent his protégé is sowing.
 
For all those Socialists denying that Socialists went all misted eyed over Venezuela, and want to forget they claimed Venezuela as an economic miracle of Socialism....

 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
Glorious hypocrisy from the Kremlin.

“We think that imposing some kind of decisions or trying to legitimise an attempt to usurp power is both direct and indirect interference in Venezuela’s internal affairs,” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters.

Major European nations recognise Guaido as Venezuela president | Reuters

Ah, Crimean and Ukrainian invasions are evidently not interference in the Ukraine's internal affairs, it only counts if the interference is not being run by Moscow.
 

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