Vegans and their totally cray-zay antics

This made me smile, if one BBQ ruined the quality of her life this will make her suicidal if it happens.

She'll do anything to get some peace and quiet apparently . . . . . . except move.
 

Dwarf

LE
Which is the point really particularly in a Northern climate. The Victorians were able to grow a large variety of plants that would not normal grown this far north on a small scale. The work and energy needed to do this meant that the produce was only available to the rich.

For the modern vegan we would have to import all those foods they now rely on like soya, rice, nuts, and much of the fruit to get close to a varied interesting diet they have become accustomed to. Items they now rely on to exchange for dairy would need to be imported.
You can come up as many substitutes as you like but in the end he will still have to import food.
I get the point you are trying to make but I think it's a touch ingenuous as much of what you say applies across the board to carnivores, omnivores, vegetarians and vegans alike.
In recent years the variety of foods we have had available has grown enormously and people have got used to regularly eating things that not so long ago were rarely eaten. When I was a lad we were different from the majority of my friends because Mum was an adventuous cook and regularly made things like pastas and curries among other things, that most of my friends only had occasionally, or out of tins. At 18 a group of us went to Italy inter-railing and I was the only one used to eating spaghetti with just a fork. Nowadays that probably wouldn't happen.

Vegans have a wider variety of food available than when I started thirty years ago and I can get stuff like soya yoghurt, ice-cream and cheese, which I enjoy on occasion but don't need. I am lucky to have landed in a country where fruit and veg are widely available all year round, and that made becoming vegetarian, then vegan easier. But if I wanted say, cous-cous I had to drive up to Perpignan. So once or twice a year we made a day trip and stocked up with foods and spices we couldn't get here in Catalonia. Now it's all available here along with a lot of other things that I never had before and enjoy , but I stress I don't need.
But that applies to everybody nowadays.

Britain has always imported food, which is why the U-Boat campaigns were so important in the two world wars, so that does negate your point quite a bit. Even the omnivores would need imported foodstuffs to have a varied diet.
 

offog

LE
I get the point you are trying to make but I think it's a touch ingenuous as much of what you say applies across the board to carnivores, omnivores, vegetarians and vegans alike.
Totally agree with that.

Many Vegas have this idea that we in the UK could grow enough if we stopped farming animals and put the land into crop production which is cloud cuckoo land.

I was watching a programme last night about the Lake District and it had some lovely aerial pictures of the farmland. Grass everywhere till you reached the gorse line. Land only suitable for growing sheep. Lots of the hilly land in the UK is like that.

In recent years the variety of foods we have had available has grown enormously and people have got used to regularly eating things that not so long ago were rarely eaten. When I was a lad we were different from the majority of my friends because Mum was an adventuous cook and regularly made things like pastas and curries among other things, that most of my friends only had occasionally, or out of tins. At 18 a group of us went to Italy inter-railing and I was the only one used to eating spaghetti with just a fork. Nowadays that probably wouldn't happen.
It's sad to say but I think a lot of the youth have regressed due to a diet of KFC and its derivative, Pizza and McD. In one of my jobs I organised cooking for parents and children in schools. You were invited (targeted by the infant school) and parents had to bring the family for a 6 week course. Parents and children would prepare and cook the meal and eat it together sitting at a table, an event most had not partaken in (meal in front of TV was normal). We are not talking anything fancy just simple meals with veg. Initially funded by the council as part of the extended schools project and using the funding for teaching math and English as a by product. When the council stopped funding it the infant school funded it and using the facilities of the special needs school next door at no cost as they had seen how popular it had become.

I think this lack of taste is one of the reason soldiers went for pay as you dine. The food in the cookhouse was not to their liking. In Gib we had a choggy shop in each of the company lines and troop would rather go to it than the cookhouse. The MQ had a massive catering under spend and would regularly run BBQs to use up some of the money.

Britain has always imported food, which is why the U-Boat campaigns were so important in the two world wars, so that does negate your point quite a bit. Even the omnivores would need imported foodstuffs to have a varied diet.
I have no illusions with regard to imported food. If we were not a rich country it would be back to turnips and gruel for most of us and farmers would be earning a good living as opposed to just getting by.
 
If everyone was to drink oat milk how much of the crop would be needed to provide suffice for everyone in the country.
Google says the UK produced 14.7 billion litres of milk and 860 thousand tons of oats in 2017/18. It takes 100g of oats to produce a litre of oat milk, so the UK's entire crop of oats would make less than 60% of current dairy milk production.

And yes, I was very, very bored.
 

offog

LE
Google says the UK produced 14.7 billion litres of milk and 860 thousand tons of oats in 2017/18. It takes 100g of oats to produce a litre of oat milk, so the UK's entire crop of oats would make less than 60% of current dairy milk production.

And yes, I was very, very bored.
Which is why I like these discussions because it causes you to go look up facts that you didn't really know but thought you knew.
 
I've read a lot about that, they'd get a better yield for less irrigation, and less water in the processing growing hemp for fibre, cord and cloth. If the government want to do something about it, they need to start with, stopping conflating hemp with marijuana and tax breaks for the farmers to switch. and the processors to update equipment, as the proccess is not exactly the same and slightly less energy efficient(though you can use the surplus husk fibre, and dust as pellet fuel and the seeds to make methanol). plus it's an added value product and a soil erosion mitigatior, so win all round..

I was discussing that the other day with someone, apparently we to grown hemp in the 1900's since it grew natively quite well, but apparently US cotton manufacturers leaned on the government to stop it for some reason. Either for cheapness reasons threatening their own products or whatever.

We've only just started growing hemp again

 
You misunderstand me,, if we no longer need 80% of ag to go to feeding livestock, there will be more ag land available to produce food for humans at a higher yield to the end users, and less land needed overall.
That's True

But on the other hand that model is dependent on synthetic fertilizers

Probably the best solution* is
1) Reduce Meat intake
2) Stop growing crops to feed livestock**
3) Smaller distributed herds on fallow land - so land gets rest and natural fertilizer
4) (Well spaced) Rows of trees (or clumps / dotted about trees in Brecons etc) - Provides a 2nd crop (offsets space lost by this) - reduces erosion , protects soil structure and if / when livestock are in the field gives them shelter.
5) Adopt no plow / dig practices
6) Pigs 1) Re allow pigs eating slops - effectively they are waste management + sausages and 2) Ban feeding them copper sulphate - they grow quicker but their shit is toxic to the land - so no good as fertilizer at present - Copper sulphates used on Tomatoes and Potatoes (to see off blight etc) but cautiously as over use kills the soil
7) - Kill and eat all the grey squirrels (Edit probably no benefit in terms of agriculture - im just in favour of exterminating them to save the red)

*Defined as long term sustainable
** Dairy cows fed Corn produce 3 times the milk of grass fed cows - so much smaller herds needed - This saves no space though and in fact requires more land as larger beef herds are needed because theres few dairy calfs for slaughter
 
Anyway as SWMBO explained they ate meat very rarely, a couple of times a week,
I wouldn't call that rarely - its what I aim for 2/3 Meat 1 of fish/ Mussels, If you look back to my previous post (and possibly posts on similar topics - its probably where we should all be aiming in terms of environmental balance.

I see no point in relying on chemical fertilizers on the lowlands - because theres no livestock and unless we use it for shoes clothes or food - there will be none as it wont be financially viable. and of course The Brecons and pennines Alps etc are good for growing sheep and goats but bugger all else** -


**Although the more militant vegan in my experience has been unable to grasp the idea that whilst grass can cling onto a 40 degree slope with 5mm of soil - this wont work for crops - who need deeper root structures etc - Ive been told im wrong on the basis of because I must be or simply called a brainwashed sheep
 
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