Vegans and their totally cray-zay antics

My point is that if we in the west move to a plant based diet then that food has to be grown some place as the west can't grown all the food we eat or the range of food we want. Within the UK we have had to import food for over 300 years to meet our needs. This was amply proved in the last war when far more land was under the plough than before but we still had to import food. That food has to be grown some place and if a farmer in Africa will earn more growing mangetout than maze to feed his family a good diet they will grow mangetout.



You did not read the link did you, you just assumed it was all about the potato famine. At that time there was large scale famine all over Europe due to crop failure not just potatoes but other basic crops too. Ireland was just the worst case.



It's very relevant as it point out that if you rely on only one food group and disregard the rest the chances of famine are greatly increased. The often quoted, we can grow all we need on the land we have ignores the fact that most of that land is only suitable for growing a limited range of plants and in some case only one, grass. How much of Mongolia would grow rice, wheat, soyra or any other crop. Greenland, a vast area is unsuitable for growing but the fishing is good.

Veganism is a rich countries diet of choice and a poor countries diet of subsistence.
So in your reality, we do not import tons upon tons of feedstuffs for livestock to the UK?
 

offog

LE
So in your reality, we do not import tons upon tons of feedstuffs for livestock to the UK?
At what point did I suggest that we didn't. We also import large amounts of meat. We also export large amounts too, chicken feet seem to ring a bell.

But we are a rich country so can eat what we want be it vegetables or meat. I can remember a time when peppers were exotic, chicken was never seen till KFC and you want to a restaurant to have spaghetti.
 
At what point did I suggest that we didn't. We also import large amounts of meat. We also export large amounts too, chicken feet seem to ring a bell.

But we are a rich country so can eat what we want be it vegetables or meat. I can remember a time when peppers were exotic, chicken was never seen till KFC and you want to a restaurant to have spaghetti.
So growing overseas for livestock feed is fine, but for human consumption is a negative. Got you now, glad you cleared that up.
 

offog

LE
So growing overseas for livestock feed is fine, but for human consumption is a negative. Got you now, glad you cleared that up.
I have no problems with you being a vegan although I do have a problem with the fascist vegan element who demand that I should eat what they tell me to. You don't see omniverse supergluing themselves to greengrocer's and demanding that vegans eat meat because they do. But the concept that we would all eat well if we all became vegans is total rubbish. As I have pointed out a healthy vegan diet is only possible in a rich country, in all others it is a subsistence diet due to necessity, a point you seem unable to accept and so deflect the argument.

At Least be honest.
 

Dwarf

LE
Veganism is a rich countries diet of choice and a poor countries diet of subsistence.
Didn't you say that there are no countries that have a vegan/vegetarian diet?

While I'm not arguing against a diet that includes something of everything, even though I personally choose to delete certain items from mine, our present eating style is unsustainable given population growth figures. A meat heavy diet is not the best use of resources, I have read various figures that say between 7-11kgs of feed that could be used for humans are needed to produce 1kg of beef or whatever.
One of the things being mooted to help is Entomophagy, or the eating of insects.
Here being a simple explanation of why it would benefit.


Anyway without taking meat out of diets most people eat too much, so a return to the standard basically vegetarian diet with some fish and insects supplemented by a bit of meat might be a necessity with population constraints. I read Mike Stroud's book (he worked with the Army studying diet) a while back and he was clear on the best diet for us, the book is interesting as he did the crossing of the Antartic with Fiennes and they started the Seven Marathons on Seven Continents in Seven Days.
 

offog

LE
Didn't you say that there are no countries that have a vegan/vegetarian diet?

While I'm not arguing against a diet that includes something of everything, even though I personally choose to delete certain items from mine, our present eating style is unsustainable given population growth figures. A meat heavy diet is not the best use of resources, I have read various figures that say between 7-11kgs of feed that could be used for humans are needed to produce 1kg of beef or whatever.
One of the things being mooted to help is Entomophagy, or the eating of insects.
Here being a simple explanation of why it would benefit.


Anyway without taking meat out of diets most people eat too much, so a return to the standard basically vegetarian diet with some fish and insects supplemented by a bit of meat might be a necessity with population constraints. I read Mike Stroud's book (he worked with the Army studying diet) a while back and he was clear on the best diet for us, the book is interesting as he did the crossing of the Antartic with Fiennes and they started the Seven Marathons on Seven Continents in Seven Days.
Can't argue with that.

To have a healthy vegan diet you would need to live in a rich country.

Vegan think of creepy crawlies as animals. Vegans don't eat honey as it is exploiting an animal.

As to a varied diet you can look at the Chinese. Suffering thousands of years of famine or lack of food means you learn to eat everything that is edible. Which is the way we probably need to go.

Many years ago I also read a very good book on the early arctic explorations looking at flight route in the 20/30s. Very good accounts of food requirements and caloric needs.
 
The only side affect I had from them was the standards of farting a lot and p1ssing out of my errse for the first two years.
Completely over the second so no problem.
BTW I have it on good authority that the fruit of the grape is absolutely fine.
I see a chancre mechanic once a year for my flight medical. Bugger told me a short course of statins would likely reduce the risk of Alzheimer's so I agreed to give it a go.

Took two out of a course of 60 and binned the rest. Almost bloody finished me. The cramps were so bad I was completely crippled for around a day, and walked with a limp for three weeks while scoffing Voltaren like smarties waiting for the muscle damage to repair itself.

Bugger that for a game of soldiers.
 
I see a chancre mechanic once a year for my flight medical. Bugger told me a short course of statins would likely reduce the risk of Alzheimer's so I agreed to give it a go.

Took two out of a course of 60 and binned the rest. Almost bloody finished me. The cramps were so bad I was completely crippled for around a day, and walked with a limp for three weeks while scoffing Voltaren like smarties waiting for the muscle damage to repair itself.

Bugger that for a game of soldiers.
So, you back on a diet that suits you? Within limits of your jet-set lifestyle?
 
Just kicked the statins after two tablets.

The jet set lifestyle is a myth. Chinese cook in the mess here and suspicious organ stir fry is a favourite among some. I tend to opt for the vegetarian plan quite often to swerve that kind of thing, along with shattered bone surprise and deep fried lips and arseholes.

Veg is a bit iffy as well. The fried cucumber is something not even a Scot would find appealing, and the fried lettuce is *ahem*... interesting...
 
Just kicked the statins after two tablets.

The jet set lifestyle is a myth. Chinese cook in the mess here and suspicious organ stir fry is a favourite among some. I tend to opt for the vegetarian plan quite often to swerve that kind of thing, along with shattered bone surprise and deep fried lips and arseholes.

Veg is a bit iffy as well. The fried cucumber is something not even a Scot would find appealing, and the fried lettuce is *ahem*... interesting...
Yep, I’m taking the piss. It’s all very well the powers that be saying eat this, that and the other. I am now lucky in that I do not travel for work. Or for pleasure, come to it. I cook or prepare food at home, so if anyone gets the shits, it’s my fault.
I used to pride myself on my cast iron constitution. Now I don’t take any risks. YMMV.
 
As to a varied diet you can look at the Chinese. Suffering thousands of years of famine or lack of food means you learn to eat everything that is edible. Which is the way we probably need to go.
In addition to the nutritional value of each type of food, Traditional Chinese Medicine recognizes medicinal qualities in each food, to include dog meat, cat meat and the dung of various animals.
For example, in TCM, fresh carp is conducive to increasing output in lactating mothers. Before our first child was weaned, I bought a carp at the market (kept live in water tanks), ran home and made soup out of it. I kid you not within an hour of consuming it, milk began dripping from her nipples.
Likewise TCM recommends white cabbage as a means of reducing lactation, by consumption and/or wrapping the breast in white cabbage leaves.
I know of at least one Obs & Gynae Dept at a major Israeli hospital in which these methods are applied.
 
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greyfergie

MIA
Book Reviewer
In addition to the nutritional value of each type of food, Traditional Chinese Medicine recognizes medicinal qualities in each food, to include dog meat, cat meat and the dung of various animals.
For example, in TCM, fresh carp is conducive to increasing output in lactating mothers. Before our first child was weaned, I bought a carp at the market (kept live in water tanks), ran home and made soup out of it. I kid you not within an hour of consuming it, milk began dripping from her nipples.
Likewise TCM recommends white cabbage as a means of reducing lactation, by consumption and/or wrapping the breast in white cabbage leaves.
I wondered why an ex had cabbage leaves in her bra, just thought she was a bit mental
 
I wondered why an ex had cabbage leaves in her bra, just thought she was a bit mental
You erm, didn't think to ask her?
'ello 'ello 'ello what 'ave we 'ere?
"Well your 'onour, I was proceedin down the 'igh street in a westerly direction when I encountered the accused dressed only in a brassiere lined wiv cabbage leaves....."
 
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40 years ago I remember a story about a healthy teenager who lived on beans on toast.
The doctors at the time decided that the diet included everything he needed.
Wonder what happened to him.
#Edit to add, what @offog said above.
I remember that.

It was a woman who asked Heinz if her son could be healthy eating only beans on toast.

Their nutritionists responded that it was possible if he was given the beans on buttered wholemeal bread with orange juice. They very strongly stressed that she should try to get her son to eat a wider diet with all the food groups present. I guess they were paranoid about headlines like “Boy dies eating Heinz beans”.

I guess the son probably grew out of it. Most kids do.

Re grapefruit:
F7517694-DCAD-4B9B-97E9-A7BB0A09A68B.jpeg


Little room for doubt there.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
I remember that.

It was a woman who asked Heinz if her son could be healthy eating only beans on toast.

Their nutritionists responded that it was possible if he was given the beans on buttered wholemeal bread with orange juice. They very strongly stressed that she should try to get her son to eat a wider diet with all the food groups present. I guess they were paranoid about headlines like “Boy dies eating Heinz beans”.

I guess the son probably grew out of it. Most kids do.

Re grapefruit:
View attachment 415432

Little room for doubt there.
The list keeps getting longer. It just started with the statins.
 

Dwarf

LE
To have a healthy vegan diet you would need to live in a rich country.

Just musing, SWMBO was born at home in 1950 into a dirt-poor Spanish village in Burgos province in the north of Spain. In recent years Spain has come a long way in many things but in those days there was much more poverty and/or people with little money. When she was 17 to get a dress for a public holiday her and her mum had to make charcoal, lug it 6km to the local town and go from door to door selling it, buy some fabric, walk 6km back and sew up the fabric to make the dress.
Her dad was a shepherd and they all had vegetable gardens. Looking at the village layout from the Church tower you can still to this day see the medieval allotments set out for the families and they all have parcels of land here and there.
When I visited for the first time I received a surprise thinking that nobody would actually live that basic.
Anyway as SWMBO explained they ate meat very rarely, a couple of times a week, pulses were far more common, especially the ubiquitous chick-pea. Vegetables were high on the menu, but they all grew up fit and healthy.
Now her brother eats loads of meat,generally avoids veg and has all sorts of health problems.

I reckon I could have lived quite happily there in food terms, and their diet, while a bit spartan to modern eyes certainly wasn't a bad one.
Like I say just musing.
 

offog

LE
and their diet, while a bit spartan to modern eyes certainly wasn't a bad one.
Which is the point really particularly in a Northern climate. The Victorians were able to grow a large variety of plants that would not normal grown this far north on a small scale. The work and energy needed to do this meant that the produce was only available to the rich.

For the modern vegan we would have to import all those foods they now rely on like soya, rice, nuts, and much of the fruit to get close to a varied interesting diet they have become accustomed to. Items they now rely on to exchange for dairy would need to be imported.
 
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