USMC prove the point about women in GCC units.

A thought provoking article written by an Irish Defense Force officer that puts it all into perspective, i never knew so many women fought so successfully during the 20th century ;)

Opinion: Women have shown time and time again that they are a more deadly species than the male
I especially like the paragraph:

The women performed well in combat alongside their male peers and after-action reports and detailed research conducted by the US, British and Israeli military demonstrate conclusively that ‘mixed-gender’ units – on land, sea and in the air – consistently outperform all-male units in combat conditions.​
How could I have been so obtuse and bigoted. By way of contrast and for those of you who subscribe to the on-line version of the Sunday Times, read the article about Sir Don McCullin Shell-shocked: Anthony Loyd goes in search of the Vietnam War veterans photographed by Don McCullin who was with the Marines during the retaking of the Imperial City of Hue, 50 years ago in February 1968. One paragraph stood out and for me says it all when it comes to being a soldier.

“When you share the battlefield and the communion of blood and guts that occurs there, every emotion an individual has is forthcoming,” he says. “We all feel fear; we all feel apprehension. You are watching each other, in some cases, die. The attachment you have for those people stays with you for ever.”​
 
A thought provoking article written by an Irish Defense Force officer that puts it all into perspective, i never knew so many women fought so successfully during the 20th century ;)

Opinion: Women have shown time and time again that they are a more deadly species than the male

The article is warped. NVA women worked on the Ho Chi Minh trail, hardly any were in open combat. If they were then why aren't they represented in popular books and films about the war? Only Carlos Hathcock mentions a female sniper.

The bit about Russian Women in WW1 is also inaccurate as only one female battalion saw combat and from that there were only 300 women volunteers. Unsuprisingly a lot of the other women were raped by drunk Russian Army soldiers - something they've got a bit of a reptuation for.

I'm surprised he managed a PHD with crap intel like that.
 
I especially like the paragraph:

The women performed well in combat alongside their male peers and after-action reports and detailed research conducted by the US, British and Israeli military demonstrate conclusively that ‘mixed-gender’ units – on land, sea and in the air – consistently outperform all-male units in combat conditions.​
How could I have been so obtuse and bigoted. By way of contrast and for those of you who subscribe to the on-line version of the Sunday Times, read the article about Sir Don McCullin Shell-shocked: Anthony Loyd goes in search of the Vietnam War veterans photographed by Don McCullin who was with the Marines during the retaking of the Imperial City of Hue, 50 years ago in February 1968. One paragraph stood out and for me says it all when it comes to being a soldier.

“When you share the battlefield and the communion of blood and guts that occurs there, every emotion an individual has is forthcoming,” he says. “We all feel fear; we all feel apprehension. You are watching each other, in some cases, die. The attachment you have for those people stays with you for ever.”​

His report will resonate with some of the pro lobby who have stated same or similar opinions on these fantasy facts :eek:

A mate has just sent me a photo of him stood at the Kokoda memorial in PNG. The story of the men who held up the Japanese advance on port Moresby is another example of how a group of untrained irregulars can take on & beat a well trained & professional army. Would this bit of military history have turned out the same if the Australians had a mixed group fighting in some of the most testing combat environments on earth.
 
Here is an article from The Yeshiva World IDF Chief Of Personnel: We Don’t Need Women In Combat Roles. Tell me if the link takes you to Timbuktu and I'll copy and paste the article. I especially like this paragraph:

The IDF’s Chief of Personnel, Major-General Moti Almoz on Monday, 28 Shevat, told a conference that he doesn’t need women at the front lines, but he does need them elsewhere. He explained for the nation’s military it is about “operational needs” and that it is not a human resource company and not about teaching equality. However, he does feel there are places where it is appropriate to place women and it is not for the IDF while some positions are not suited.​
Why can't our generals be as blunt?
 
Here is an article from The Yeshiva World IDF Chief Of Personnel: We Don’t Need Women In Combat Roles. Tell me if the link takes you to Timbuktu and I'll copy and paste the article. I especially like this paragraph:

The IDF’s Chief of Personnel, Major-General Moti Almoz on Monday, 28 Shevat, told a conference that he doesn’t need women at the front lines, but he does need them elsewhere. He explained for the nation’s military it is about “operational needs” and that it is not a human resource company and not about teaching equality. However, he does feel there are places where it is appropriate to place women and it is not for the IDF while some positions are not suited.​
Why can't our generals be as blunt?
Put very simply because we are not fighting for our very existence, if & when that happens the idea will be put back on hold.

Link did not open
 
I especially like the paragraph:

The women performed well in combat alongside their male peers and after-action reports and detailed research conducted by the US, British and Israeli military demonstrate conclusively that ‘mixed-gender’ units – on land, sea and in the air – consistently outperform all-male units in combat conditions.​
Every one of his supposed facts or reports is the same - a half-truth, a myth or pure fabrication.​
I'll go through it, line by line, time permitting.​
A mate has just sent me a photo of him stood at the Kokoda memorial in PNG. The story of the men who held up the Japanese advance on port Moresby is another example of how a group of untrained irregulars can take on & beat a well trained & professional army. Would this bit of military history have turned out the same if the Australians had a mixed group fighting in some of the most testing combat environments on earth.
Unfortunately it's just this sort of equally "fantasy facts" that's effectively guaranteed the success of the "pro lobby" without serious challenge. The description of the Australian forces there (2nd AIF, approx 30,000 well trained and combat experienced soldiers) as "a group of untrained irregulars" is utter and absolute rubbish.
 
Every one of his supposed facts or reports is the same - a half-truth, a myth or pure fabrication.​
I'll go through it, line by line, time permitting.​
Unfortunately it's just this sort of equally "fantasy facts" that's effectively guaranteed the success of the "pro lobby" without serious challenge. The description of the Australian forces there (2nd AIF, approx 30,000 well trained and combat experienced soldiers) as "a group of untrained irregulars" is utter and absolute rubbish.
The initial troops sent in were the militia recruited for home defense only. I'll leave this here for you to have a look at, maybe it's all lies & i'v been had over. Whatever your final thoughts are on my suggestion that poorly armed & trained troops sent to hold a line are, it's still worth reminding ourselves how worst case scenarios evolve during war.

 
The initial troops sent in were the militia recruited for home defense only. I'll leave this here for you to have a look at, maybe it's all lies & i'v been had over. Whatever your final thoughts are on my suggestion that poorly armed & trained troops sent to hold a line are, it's still worth reminding ourselves how worst case scenarios evolve during war.

No, it's not "lies" at all, but it doesn't say or even suggest that a 'group of untrained irregulars took on and beat a well trained and professional army' which is rubbish and an insult to the soldiers there in its ignorance (including a number of my family). That isn't what happened or remotely what your link says happened - the militias played a vital role that deserves full recognition, but they were a small part of the whole.

... and I'm quite sure that in a "worst case scenario" and in the unlikely event that "we are fighting for our very existence" the Army will do exactly what it's done before, as has every country in those circumstances - been happy to take anyone available, young or old, male or female. You can't have it both ways.
 
The militia held the line until the professionals relieved them, they were on the winning team ergo played their part in beating the enemy force set against them. Splitting hairs aside the fact is that these young men were able to fight in an extreme environment where everything had to be carried. A mixed force would be at a distinct disadvantage in this situation as has been highlighted in every example that has been posted on this thread. That is unless we count paddy from the IDF's fairy tale write up as a valid case study o_O
 
The militia held the line until the professionals relieved them, they were on the winning team ergo played their part in beating the enemy force set against them.
Yet again, you're determined to have it both ways - the Russian women in WW2 made up only 3% of the Russian Army; does that mean they deserve the credit for defeating the Germans, as the author of your link suggests, or that 97% of the credit should go to the Russian men he has somehow overlooked completely (as well as the Brits, Americans, etc)?

FFS!
Splitting hairs aside the fact is that these young men were able to fight in an extreme environment where everything had to be carried.
Rubbish. Look at your own link, for crying out loud. Most of the supplies were air-dropped, and casualties and loads were carried by local (PNG) 'carriers'.

. A mixed force would be at a distinct disadvantage in this situation as has been highlighted in every example that has been posted on this thread.
See above. In this particular instance there's nothing to indicate that at all; there are plenty of examples where it's an issue, but not in this one nor in "every" case. By insisting that it applies in " every " case including ones where it clearly doesn't (many fit, strong, trained women would be fitter, stronger and more capable under these circumstances than many untrained irregulars) all you're doing is defeating your own case. Again.

That is unless we count paddy from the IDF's fairy tale write up as a valid case study
Rather like your own fairy tale, then?

(edit: not important, although it would save confusion with the Israeli Defence Force (IDF), but the Irish Defence Force are actually correctly abbreviated as the DFI (Defence Force Ireland)
 
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Okay, @Talos here is that article I quoted in its entirety. Your comment "because we are not fighting for our very existence" should be our approach to soldiering and war, both at our lowly level and nationally.
Last week, IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-General Gadi Eizenkott commented that he does not expect to see female combatants at the front line of combat in his career, and his comments are joined by another senior commander who confirms the women combatants are not essential to the IDF.​
The IDF’s Chief of Personnel, Major-General Moti Almoz on Monday, 28 Shevat, told a conference that he doesn’t need women at the front lines, but he does need them elsewhere. He explained for the nation’s military it is about “operational needs” and that it is not a human resource company and not about teaching equality. However, he does feel there are places where it is appropriate to place women and it is not for the IDF while some positions are not suited.​
He added there is no one counting the number of kippot, but what is important is to keep heads covered with helmets. He disagrees with those who say morale is low, citing it is quite high in fact as the nation’s young remain motivated.​
He feels there is absolutely no place for politics in the military, taking a blow at the military rabbinate, explaining there were redundancies and they were dealt with, with the IDF Education Branch in charges of education, citing actions taken however were not against the IDF Rabbinate, but more a move to remove the redundancies which existed and to permit the Education Corps to teach and the IDF Rabbinate to do what it is responsible for.​
(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)​
 
NVA women worked on the Ho Chi Minh trail, hardly any were in open combat. If they were then why aren't they represented in popular books and films about the war?
They are in Vietnam, including in HCMC and Hanoi ... but maybe books and films showing a bunch of big tough Western men getting their arrse kicked by a bunch of little Asian peasants, including women, aren't very "popular" in the West?
 
Your comment "because we are not fighting for our very existence" should be our approach to soldiering and war, both at our lowly level and nationally.
Oh come on, @Col B, I expected better from you ... name any Army that isn't 'fighting for its country's very existence' that takes that approach, or that can afford to...

... any ... or even any that isn't that needs to ...
 
The article is warped. NVA women worked on the Ho Chi Minh trail, hardly any were in open combat. If they were then why aren't they represented in popular books and films about the war? Only Carlos Hathcock mentions a female sniper.

The bit about Russian Women in WW1 is also inaccurate as only one female battalion saw combat and from that there were only 300 women volunteers. Unsuprisingly a lot of the other women were raped by drunk Russian Army soldiers - something they've got a bit of a reptuation for.

I'm surprised he managed a PHD with crap intel like that.
Full Metal Jacket also features a female sniper.

But you're right, the reality is that the history of women in GCC units in the modern era has been as an expedient of last resort and one abandoned at the first opportunity.
 
Having read the totally inadequate article by the Irish Gentleman, the errors are profound. The official Irish Government roll of the participants in the Easter Uprising in 1916, does not show 300 women actively involved in the fighting. Probably in figures from the 1960-80's research show at the most five and more likely only three woman used some form of firearm during this period.

Apart from very limited front line use during the 1948 War of Independence, the Israeli Defence Force does not use women in front line combat as rifle men. What confuses the issue is that in the training of conscripts, women are used as instructors in the training of men for the combat arms. Ie. in a infantry training group women instructors will carry out specific instruction, such a one woman is trained to teach the firing of the FN-MAG, another woman teaches the Immediate Action drills, another teaches the stripping and assembly with its cleaning.

Tankers have women instructors teaching all aspects of tank crew operation, one teaches the use of the M2 127mm HMG, another its maintenance, similarly others teach the FN-MAG. Such as driving, maintenance, radio procedure and maintenance are taught by women very well trained in educating in the specific aspects. And similar with other Arms.

Women are seen on the streets as document checkers, vehicle searchers, running CCTV, as "people watchers", but in actual physical combat with the 'street enemy' only in the role of acting as a form of chaperone to protect the men from sexual assault claims.

The Israeli Nation places immense emphasis on the fact that women are the 'savior of the Nation' ie. they reproduce the population. And therefore they must be protected. Women do hold extremely important combat support roles in intelligence, combat control, communications etc., as well as the traditional administrative and logistics functions.

The Russians in the Great War and the following Civil War never conscripted women, the 'Battalions of Death' were completely made up of volunteers, unlike his claim they were conscripted. Similarly the 'one million' women did not form combat units. A small number became snipers (actually marksmen from the pre-war 'People's' rifle clubs, the women in combat units were the usual medical, administrative and logistic roles.

ADDIT : The Soviet Army had a corps, the Traffic Regulators which existed within the Rear Services, which . controlled the military highway and motor vehicle traffic; the bulk of its personnel were women, and they of some several hundred thousand in number.

I would put the article down a a 'fluff piece', to make his gender credentials.

In regard to the Kokoda Track, there is a great deal of mythology. The badly trained and in the majority of cases badly led conscripts of the militia battalions were fortunate that the Japanese Army logistic system had failed these troops going over the mountains, and the troops were half starved before they even met the Australian's. The sheer horror of the physical conditions traipsing over those mountains, added to the severe disease problems (malaria, dengue and Yellow fever), and the multitude of other tropical health problems had led the Japanese medical system to collapse. The Japanese were not the super elite troops mythology make them out to be. The relevant volume of the Official War History discusses in detail the incidents of cannibalism carrying out on Australian dead (including POW killed for their meat), as well as their own and the local population.

We took the first intake of Papua New Guinea Defence Force officer cadets up the Kokoda Track from Owens Corner in 1973, 37 miles as the crow flies (and about 119 in real distance up and down) to Kokoda Village. And it unlike the tourist treks today!!!! It taking seven days for a party of some 70, which was quite good going as we had to literally hack our way through the secondary undergrowth that had developed in 29 odd years years, plus prepare water crossings. The following year we took the same cadets from Buna in the North across to the Kokoda Village, to get the Japanese point of view, and also to see the brutal campaign that the men of the 2nd AIF fought chasing the Japanese to the coast.
 
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Full Metal Jacket also features a female sniper.

But you're right, the reality is that the history of women in GCC units in the modern era has been as an expedient of last resort and one abandoned at the first opportunity.
There I'd agree with you 100%, @FFM - the author's supposed 'history' in the article is history re-written, so distorted and cherry-picked as to be unrecognisable.

As has been pointed out, although there were 'thousands' of women in the Czar's army in WW1, most weren't in combat; only one of the women's bns made it to the front line, and that was only 300 strong despite starting with 2.000 as the rest were either injured in training, left due the harsh discipline, or were rejected as 'loose women' by their fanatical female commander; and it wasn't even called a 'battalion of death', as some male bns also were, because of its effect on the enemy but because it was bordering on suicide bn due to its role going first 'over the top'.

Similarly, it's absurd for the author to claim that " The gender-integrated units of the Red Army and Air Force eventually defeated the Germans." Undeniably they played a part (a 3% part, in Red Army terms), as did the irregular militia on the Kokoda trail, but only a part which is far from what he says.

Similarly, his claim that "In Vietnam, approximately 40% of North Vietnamese Army (NVA) commanders were women. Along with their gender-integrated allies the Viet Cong, they comprehensively defeated an almost exclusively male and technologically superior enemy in the US military" isn't based on reality on the ground, although it's undeniable they they were 'gender-integrated', but is simply repeating Vietnamese Communist Policy Party policy, nothing more.

Similarly, his claim that "In Operations Desert Watch and Desert Storm, the US and its allies deployed 43,000 female troops against Saddam Hussein’s elite all-male Republican Guard' when the reality was that the allies deployed over 950,000 troops of whom less than 5% were female, all in non-combat posts (no idea what "Operation Desert Watch" was.

Or his claim that "The women performed well in combat alongside their male peers and after-action reports and detailed research conducted by the US, British and Israeli military demonstrate conclusively that ‘mixed-gender’ units – on land, sea and in the air – consistently outperform all-male units in combat conditions." If he's referring to Operation Desert Storm, as he appears to be, neither the Americans or British had any "mixed-gender units" operating there "in combat conditions" and the Israelis had no troops operating there at all. If, on the other hand, he was talking generally I wish he'd given some references to support these claims, as I've been unable to find any such "reports and detailed research" at all.
the history of women in GCC units in the modern era has been as an expedient of last resort
Unfortunately, @FFM, @Talos and @Col B seem to think that that should be our approach to soldiering and war; doesn't seem to make too much sense to me.
 
The official Irish Government roll of the participants in the Easter Uprising in 1916, does not show 300 women actively involved in the fighting. Probably in figures from the 1960-80's research show at the most five and more likely only three woman used some form of firearm during this period.
The "1960-80's research" is very much 'of its time', done fifty years ago at a time when women were rather less equal than they were in either 1916 or 100 years later. More recent research for the centenary shows very clearly that over 270 women were involved, naming them in an exhibition at Dublin Castle, with 90 under arms including two who were officers; the ADC to James Connoll (commander of the ICA) was a woman, Winifred Carney; Countess Markievicz shot a policeman in the head with a pistol; Margaret Skinnider was a sniper, who was shot three times. The media reporting of this was extensive, changing the view at the fiftieth anniversary.
Apart from very limited front line use during the 1948 War of Independence, the Israeli Defence Force does not use women in front line combat as rifle men.
I don't know how you could have missed the mark so widely on this one - try a search in this thread for Caracal. The Caracal bns are far from a success, but they're undeniably infantry even if they're limited in role and capability.
The Israeli Nation places immense emphasis on the fact that women are the 'savior of the Nation' ie. they reproduce the population. And therefore they must be protected. Women do hold extremely important combat support roles in intelligence, combat control, communications etc., as well as the traditional administrative and logistics functions.
I think you're in more of a time warp than even I get accused of being at times! Again, do a search of this thread and the links are very clear and unequivocal.
the 'Battalions of Death' were completely made up of volunteers, unlike his claim they were conscripted.
Not correct. The male bns were mainly conscript, although the one women's one was volunteer. The problem in terms of the article wasn't whether they were volunteers or conscripts but that supposedly "their ferocity in hand-to-hand combat and close-quarter fighting earned female units the term “battalions of death” when the reality was that it was just a unit name, like the Green Howards or 101st Airborne.
A small number became snipers (actually marksmen from the pre-war 'People's' rifle clubs,
No, actually snipers, with a very high kill rate - and I don't think over 2,000 is "a small number" by any standards, except in comparison to the overall numbers involved; in terms of the number of women in combat units it's particularly high.
In regard to the Kokoda Track, there is a great deal of mythology.
About the only thing we're agreed on (and the only part of your post that's correct), although I still can't see the relevance to women in the infantry since while many women would not have done as well as the irregulars some could possibly have done better; that's not to discredit the men who were there in any way, just an objective reflection of mental and physical ability.
 
To John G. Having just been told about your response to me, and having read I find it a utterly silly rave.

Firstly may I say that in early 2017 I returned to Israel where I had spent three tours with the various UN Missions in the 1980's, and again as a civilian UN employee in 1998. There we spent a fortnight visiting from the Golan to Gaza, being well briefed by the Israeli Defence Force and Police, and the current UN personnel, And my statements are exact as to the current state of affairs in Israel.

Secondly, the current state of history re the Easter Rebellion is accurately recorded in what I wrote. At the best they can claim that five women took up arms, nor more and quite probably less.

Thirdly there is a immense difference between a trained sniper and a marksman. And the figure of 2,000 (in total between 1941-45) in a Soviet army of some nine million (not including such as the Navy on land or security troops) in total is small!!!

In regard to Kododa, the men there were not irregulars, but were conscripted soldiers who were formally enlisted, disciplined and uniformed in military organised bodies, and who had been trained for at least one hundred days in Australia before they left for the Territory of Papua, where they had been for between three and five months. The problem being a inadequate unit command structure from junior NCOs to the battalion CO's, who lacked the necessary military skills.

I do not take kindly to ill informed persons commenting upon what I have written. The real world bears little resemblance to wikipedia or other on web sites. Yours, G.A.MACKINLAY
 
I do not take kindly to ill informed persons commenting upon what I have written. The real world bears little resemblance to wikipedia or other on web sites. Yours, G.A.MACKINLAY
Welcome to Arrse, it took me a while to learn how thing work around here too. But the main and overriding factor is, in the end you will be beaten into submission with words, and not just a couple of hundred, thousands upon thousands of words will come your way.

Give up now and take up gardening, for the sake of your sanity ^~
 
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