USA to remove 9,500 troops from Germany

'Fort Trump appears to have fallen. Poland’s grand proposal in 2018 to name a military base in honor of Donald Trump, in return for the U.S. president placing a permanent presence there, has crumbled amid disputes over how to fund the deployment and where to garrison the soldiers, sources say.
I thought US bases were named after war heroes. Fort Bonespurs doesn't really fit the bill, does it?
 
Never mind that... nobody's told EUCOM or even the Pentagon, if they are to be believed - just like the Germans and NATO, all they know is from White House leaks to the WSJ and now a couple of other media outlets.

So the options for what this is seem to be narrowing; the biggest question at this point, it seems to me, is whether this is a firm intention on the part of the Trump inner circle, to be forced through regardless of common sense and how impractical it is to implement in the timescale (and, now, it seems, even in the face of a little Republican opposition as well), or whether it was something floated to make the point to the Germans and please the Trumpers which has got a little out of hand.

How Milley and Wolters play it - or how they implement the orders if it goes that far - will be critical, and there seem to be disturbing signs of Wolters at least being unconvinced that the Russia problem is a problem for the US as well as for Europe. So he may not be inclined to slow-roll it or "interpret" in a way that does as little damage as possible.

AFRICOM, meanwhile, must be sweating. I wonder if Trump & Co even know that they're run from Germany and would be hit by this.
I suspect this is mainly for domestic consumption during the upcoming elections in the US. The numbers may have been plucked out of the air by Trump or his campaign team.

This plan may get realised at about the time that Trump gets the Mexicans to pay for building his so far imaginary wall.
 
And why is there a 'totally split command structure': because, under the Berlin Plus Agreement, NATO (with the USA in the lead) provides the command structure to avoid duplication of resources. SHAPE is designated as the OHQ for EU ops with, until recently DSACEUR (UK), now VCOS (FR) as the strategic coordinator and designated commander. For example, for Op ALTHEA (BiH), the personnel of the SHAPE Peacetime Establishment form the foundation of the EU OHQ.
This is only one of the Command option for EU Ops, the less likely to be used and has mostly survived because the UK had, until BREXIT, a vested interest in keeping it since DSACEUR is UK flagged.
 
This is only one of the Command option for EU Ops, the less likely to be used and has mostly survived because the UK had, until BREXIT, a vested interest in keeping it since DSACEUR is UK flagged.
But the designated EU Op Commander within SHAPE is no longer DSACEUR. That responsibility has moved to the (French) VCOS SHAPE. The question for the future is whether non-Berlin Plus nations' assets or capabilities are required for an EU-led op; if the answer is 'yes', SHAPE as the OHQ is the only viable option.
 
But the designated EU Op Commander within SHAPE is no longer DSACEUR. That responsibility has moved to the (French) VCOS SHAPE. The question for the future is whether non-Berlin Plus nations' assets or capabilities are required for an EU-led op; if the answer is 'yes', SHAPE as the OHQ is the only viable option.
All the recent EU Ops have relied on Member States' assets and capabilities and their willingness to provide a suitable EU OHQ.

Then there is the option of activating the EUMS OPsCen if no national HQ has been ID'd

Finally, there is the option to merge the OHQ and FHQ like it was done for EUTM Somalia and EUTM Mali.

CSDP and NATO nations are almost all the same so pitting one organisation against the other is not helpful, as are the talks of an "EU Army"; is there a "NATO Army" ?

The body which commands the 3 "non-executive" out of 6 EU CSDP operations is the MPCC (Military Planning and Conduct Capability).


Below a map of current EU CSDP operations. Before BREXIT, the key position of J5 Head of the Ops Directorate of the EU Military Staff was held by a British Colonel.

1591907018502.png
 
All the recent EU Ops have relied on Member States' assets and capabilities and their willingness to provide a suitable EU OHQ.

Then there is the option of activating the EUMS OPsCen if no national HQ has been ID'd

Finally, there is the option to merge the OHQ and FHQ like it was done for EUTM Somalia and EUTM Mali.

CSDP and NATO nations are almost all the same so pitting one organisation against the other is not helpful, as are the talks of an "EU Army"; is there a "NATO Army" ?

The body which commands the 3 "non-executive" out of 6 EU CSDP operations is the MPCC (Military Planning and Conduct Capability).


Below a map of current EU CSDP operations. Before BREXIT, the key position of J5 Head of the Ops Directorate of the EU Military Staff was held by a British Colonel.

View attachment 481486
As you well know, mon brave, there is no NATO Army. However, there are NATO, rather than national, owned assets and capabilities; AWACS, AGS, and NATO C2 networks and systems. As with EU ops, contributing nations provide Transfer Of Authority (TOA), somewhere on the spectrum between OPCON and TACON, for force elements, and also provide capabilities (or products/effects) to the Alliance without TOAing the assets responsible for the product/effect.
 
As you well know, mon brave, there is no NATO Army. However, there are NATO, rather than national, owned assets and capabilities; AWACS, AGS, and NATO C2 networks and systems. As with EU ops, contributing nations provide Transfer Of Authority (TOA), somewhere on the spectrum between OPCON and TACON, for force elements, and also provide capabilities (or products/effects) to the Alliance without TOAing the assets responsible for the product/effect.
Fully concur. I just wanted to point out the stupidity of all these "EU Army" talks when 22 of the 27 EU states also belong to NATO.
 

sand_rat

Old-Salt
But the money those troops spend will remain in the American economy and not in the German economy. Which is politically popular. BO pulled out two armored brigades, and the US presence will continue to decline. It is almost as if we are planning for a long term break from Germany, when Merkel calls it.
Point is that although the Brits effectively used the DM (as was) and lots of cash went into the local German economy, US troops didnt they got paid in US$ and if youre on a US base $s is what you need. Back in the day it wasnt unusual for US troops to do whole tours in the FRG and never leave their base for recreational purposes.
May have changed but think in the US sector the US$ is still king - that said LEPs will go and potential payments into the local economy might be affected but the US imported nearly all its food, fuel, consumer goods etc.
 
Point is that although the Brits effectively used the DM (as was) and lots of cash went into the local German economy, US troops didnt they got paid in US$ and if youre on a US base $s is what you need. Back in the day it wasnt unusual for US troops to do whole tours in the FRG and never leave their base for recreational purposes.
May have changed but think in the US sector the US$ is still king - that said LEPs will go and potential payments into the local economy might be affected but the US imported nearly all its food, fuel, consumer goods etc.
What day was that?

I ask as pop did tours in 45-46, 55-58 and I did in 85 and 89, and 93 and can assure you we spent plenty of time off base esp at Heilbron at 2nd bn 4th Inf we even had the obligatory turk stab one of the guys one night on the way back from the bar
 
Point is that although the Brits effectively used the DM (as was) and lots of cash went into the local German economy, US troops didnt they got paid in US$ and if youre on a US base $s is what you need. Back in the day it wasnt unusual for US troops to do whole tours in the FRG and never leave their base for recreational purposes.
May have changed but think in the US sector the US$ is still king - that said LEPs will go and potential payments into the local economy might be affected but the US imported nearly all its food, fuel, consumer goods etc.
For the British Army though, Germany was just another Colony which we swoped for India in 1947.
 
Which all points to the troop withdrawal from Germany being back state-side. I wonder if anyone's told the facilities and local infrastructure that are about to get this influx of personnel, equipment, materiel and families to make ready?
Considering the amount of new building construction on the last 5 years at CONUS bases It shouldnt be that bad

Ft Drum NY for example just finished building all NEW Unit housing and motor pools and they still have the old ones. They can easily house 4 brigades and only have 3 currently so can add 4,400 to the base
 
What day was that?

I ask as pop did tours in 45-46, 55-58 and I did in 85 and 89, and 93 and can assure you we spent plenty of time off base esp at Heilbron at 2nd bn 4th Inf we even had the obligatory turk stab one of the guys one night on the way back from the bar
Lots of US servicemen from Yongsan visiting Hooker Hill in Itawon back in the eighties. And the Grand Ole Opry Country and Western club at the top of Hooker Hill. Thats where I learned from the good ole boys about the Maison Dixon Line and them dammed Yankees. They won't be happy about the re-naming of Fort Bragg and Fort Benning just to appease the commies in BLM. If there any of them still alive of course.
 
Unlikely to get the Nobel Prize like his predecessor, but looks like the Hair Fuhrer is lining up for this year's 'Hero of the Soviet Union' award.

'Russia’s Foreign Ministry on Thursday welcomed President Donald Trump’s reported plan to withdraw more than a quarter of U.S. troops from Germany, saying it would help bolster security in Europe.

'Trump has reportedly signed off on a plan to cut the number of troops stationed in Germany from 34,500 to no more than 25,000. Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said that “we would welcome any steps by Washington to scale down its military presence in Europe. Such steps would undoubtedly help reduce confrontational potential and ease military and political tensions in the Euro-Atlantic region,” Zakharova said at a briefing, adding that the large U.S. military presence in Germany is a “vestige of the Cold War.”


 
Meanwhile, a cash-strapped US DoD chooses to throw good money after bad.

'The U.S. Defense Department has announced a resumption of millions of dollars in military assistance to Ukraine after it was frozen last year, putting it at the heart of the impeachment of President Donald Trump.

'The Pentagon said $250 million will be released to assist with “training, equipment, and advisory efforts to strengthen Ukraine’s capacity to more effectively defend itself against Russian aggression.” A Pentagon statement says the aid reaffirms the long-standing defense relationship between the United States and Ukraine, adding that the country is “a critical partner on the front line of strategic competition with Russia.”

'The support will complement NATO security assistance to Kyiv, and comes after the United States certified the Ukraine government had implemented required reforms in the military, the Pentagon statement said. Over the past year, Ukraine has taken "considerable steps" to strengthen civilian control of the military, reform management and command structures, and reduce corruption, it said. The United States and other western countries have expanded support of the Ukraine military since Moscow seized control of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in March 2014 after sending in troops and staging a referendum dismissed as illegal by at least 100 countries. Moscow is also backing separatists in a war in eastern Ukraine that has killed more than 13,000 people since April 2014. The Pentagon statement says the United States continues to urge all allies and partners to enhance their support for Ukraine’s security and defense.

'Last year Trump froze hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid to the country while he sought help from the government to investigate former US Vice President Joe Biden, his Democratic challenger in the November presidential election. Democrats said Trump’s request amounted to a quid-pro-quo for military aid and launched an impeachment inquiry for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. Trump was acquitted by the Senate early this year.'


 

sand_rat

Old-Salt
What day was that?

I ask as pop did tours in 45-46, 55-58 and I did in 85 and 89, and 93 and can assure you we spent plenty of time off base esp at Heilbron at 2nd bn 4th Inf we even had the obligatory turk stab one of the guys one night on the way back from the bar
With Brits about the only facilities on camp was access to alcohol and some gopping Naafi scran. You wanted pizza, german net, petrol, german net, furniture, german net, McDonalds, german net, KFC etc etc, Even married quarters where off camp. Ive seen all these on US bases circa 1977-1998 (look at Rhine am Maine airbase). yes some did go off camp but with brits it was the norm, it really was. want to visit a really big dept stores,gerrman net, but US bases had PXs the size of Bournemouth, I know I went in some, and some of the smaller ones.
Even the Naafi at Rhinedahlen was pathetic, my local Tesco is three times its size.
Lets not get into a slagging match with us 99% used the german net even for weekly shops!
I also had a run in with a turk and a blade, doc said it was surgical steel grade, on the german net and even got tear gassed by the german plod in Dusseldorf, but that as they say is another story.
 

Cyberhacker

Old-Salt
USA to remove 9,500 troops from Germany, Will this upset the Germans or would they like to see the back
of the Septics, Is this the start of a total pull out of the American
This is a case of Trump-Tantrum

In other news, the US Army have recently (re)stood-up V Corps (OK, based in Fort Knox, but to forward deploy to Germany) and 41 Field Artillery Brigade (with M270 MLRS) in Grafenwöhr - and have actively been discussing a permanent Divisional Headquarters

Actions (increasing forward basing) and words (decrease it) don't balance!
 

Zhopa

War Hero
All of this is true, but we still need also to account for the damage Trump tantrums do when his attention span is long enough to follow through on them. "Watch what we do, not what we tweet" was how Ben Hodges summed up what you just said while he was still in post; but that approach depends on Trump not knowing, or understanding, what is happening. And it can all be relatively easily trashed.

(For case studies, see diversion of funding from ERI to Trump's wall, or in the worst case, the pull-out from northeast Syria - no consultation, no sense, no warning, but a direct order to drop everything, bail out and leave your friends to the Russians.)
 
This would result in an increase in costs to the host countries of 5 or 6 times over what they pay now, and they have been resisting it.
Then it should be applauded as he is saving the Germans money...which might then go towards improving their performance on their financial pledge to NATO which they seem not to be fulfilling.
 
All of this is true, but we still need also to account for the damage Trump tantrums do when his attention span is long enough to follow through on them.
Like the reduction of US aid to the military in Pakistan???

Many thought that was not before time...as do others who feel that the withdrawal of US troops may be in response to and a hint to Germany which while certainly not pulling its weight in NATO... seems to be interested in an EU army???
 
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