USA say there is no Civil War, then decide to start one!

#1
CNN clicky

The septics sure know how to turn a cluster into a disaster.

Wonder how long until these weapons are pointed back in the direction that they came from?
 
#2
Quick! all down to Harper's Ferry and bring your lynching rope!
 
#3
Hmm, certainly appears to be a recipe for disaster.

Didnt something similar happen in Vietnam? The Hu Choi pragramme or some such.
'Defectors' from the NVA would start working with the yanks, all was well for a time and the yanks learned alot about NVA/VC tactics, until it all started to go wrong and the 'defectors' switched back, happily armed and current on US army methods.

Im all for the, if you cant beat them, join them approach, I just find it difficult to see how this is going to work.
 
#4
Stand by for the US to switch sides to the Saudi Arabian backed Sunnis.

The region will realign down religious and your enemy is my friend lines with Shia Iraq/Iran on one side and US/Israel/Iraqi Sunni/Saudi Sunni on the other.

Could just be a ploy to get the Iraqi Govt in order. But who knows, stranger things have happened.

Keep an eye on the Kurds though!!
 
#5
Cuddles said:
Quick! all down to Harper's Ferry and bring your lynching rope!
Was that Flashy I saw leaving by the back window?
 
#6
I have always thought that the marriage of convenience between the Islamists and the other insurgents was a temporary expedient and that they would end up fighting each other eventually.

I expect the plan was to cooperate until the foreign forces were forced out, by political pressure at home to get out of an unwinable situation, and then turn on each other.

It seems the septics want to help kick it off sooner. The flaw in the plan, though, is that if the militias that they’re arming do manage to defeat AQ, the will eventually turn their weapons on the coalition. I just hope that British politicians recognise that Iraq has will inevitably go to hell in a hand basket and get our forces out of there before it happens.
 
#7
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Stand by for the US to switch sides to the Saudi Arabian backed Sunnis.
The region will realign down religious lines and your enemy is my friend lines with Shia Iraq/Iran on one side and US/Israel/Iraqi Sunni/Saudi Sunni on the other.
Could just be a ploy to get the Iraqi Govt in order. But who knows, stranger things have happened

Keep an eye on the Kurds though!![/
quote]

Never a truer word, specially at this time of the year eh viewers?. With your Chrysanthemums and Petunias coming into bloom you really do have to - "Keep an eye on those Kurds" or they will munch through the heads faster than a herd of goats.
"Wont they just Jimmy?"
"Sure will Kurtz."

When we come back I'll be asking Jimmy McNigeglib who's chances he fancys in the quarter finals, how he's doing keeping off the sauce these days and whether he reckons Beckam's missus actually does take it up the arrse.
Join us after the break.
 
#9
suits_U said:
Hmm, certainly appears to be a recipe for disaster.

Didnt something similar happen in Vietnam? The Hu Choi pragramme or some such.
'Defectors' from the NVA would start working with the yanks, all was well for a time and the yanks learned alot about NVA/VC tactics, until it all started to go wrong and the 'defectors' switched back, happily armed and current on US army methods.

Im all for the, if you cant beat them, join them approach, I just find it difficult to see how this is going to work.
Was with RGJ........check out ..= Chen Ping OBE!!!!!!
 
#10
About 3 years too late.

Though it does lend credence to the Mayor of the Green zone seeing Saddamist Generals under his bed.

Hypothesis

So Turkey rolls into Kurdistan to great jubilation of the Turkish , Iranian , Syrian and Iraqi Sunni civpop , the really useful part of the Iraqi Armed Forces (The disbanded bit) agrees to help in return for new elections and support for a secular united Iraq. The Sunni then decide to do what they did pre-2003 and start hanging Al-Q members from the nearest empty tree.

Iran officially grumbles but unoffically is chuffed that the PKK and myriad other drug runners and terrorists are getting liqidated wholesale by the Turks. Iran offers to help 'maintain stability' , diplomatic channels opened in full to Iran to discuss other matters , including Afghanistan and nuklear stuff.

Israel has an attack of the vapours, is told to wind it's fu@~*ng neck in.

America sees a time it can actually announce a withdrawl , with a secular Western friendly government in charge, and a united Iraq.

Unhappy Bunnies - Israel who were wielding influence in Kurdistan , the Shi'a and various of their religous extremist militas , the Kurds of course and that's about it.

Yeah it's a winner.

If it had happened 3/4 years ago. I don't know how they can make this fly now. Maybe they can.
 
#11
PartTimePongo said:
About 3 years too late.

Though it does lend credence to the Mayor of the Green zone seeing Saddamist Generals under his bed.

Hypothesis

So Turkey rolls into Kurdistan to great jubilation of the Turkish , Iranian , Syrian and Iraqi Sunni civpop , the really useful part of the Iraqi Armed Forces (The disbanded bit) agrees to help in return for new elections and support for a secular united Iraq. The Sunni then decide to do what they did pre-2003 and start hanging Al-Q members from the nearest empty tree.

Iran officially grumbles but unoffically is chuffed that the PKK and myriad other drug runners and terrorists are getting liqidated wholesale by the Turks. Iran offers to help 'maintain stability' , diplomatic channels opened in full to Iran to discuss other matters , including Afghanistan and nuklear stuff.

Israel has an attack of the vapours, is told to wind it's fu@~*ng neck in.

America sees a time it can actually announce a withdrawl , with a secular Western friendly government in charge, and a united Iraq.

Unhappy Bunnies - Israel who were wielding influence in Kurdistan , the Shi'a and various of their religous extremist militas , the Kurds of course and that's about it.

Yeah it's a winner.

If it had happened 3/4 years ago. I don't know how they can make this fly now. Maybe they can.
?
 
#12
I wish they'd make their minds up.

First they love Saddam, give him loads of guns, int and money and laud him to the skies; then they hate him, sanction him, vilify him and eventually topple him; now they're back to Phase 1?

It's this shilly-shallying around that's so undignified.
 
#13
smartascarrots said:
I wish they'd make their minds up.

First they love Saddam, give him loads of guns, int and money and laud him to the skies; then they hate him, sanction him, vilify him and eventually topple him; now they're back to Phase 1?

It's this shilly-shallying around that's so undignified.

watch the TV/RADIO news in the next 2 weeks.....more will come "bright"
in the daylight!!!......
 
#14
Fer wot it's worth, a day or 2 back, I posted (on "Battle for Baghdad - 90 days to Victory?") a piece reporting Sunni Insurgent Group Announces Truce With Al-Qaeda In Iraq. It wasn't mainstream press, but just like in Bosnia, they consistently over-simplify the problem: every incident is laid at the door of 'the insurgency', and you are left to make your own assumptions about what that means.

Not only is there more than one conflict taking place in Iraq (begging the question, "Which one(s) are the West supposed to be trying to win?"), overlaid and overlapping with with massive criminal violence, and there are more clans and sub-clans and loyalties and factions in Iraq than you could shake a stick at, while the last people whose loyalties can be taken for granted are the Iraqi gubmint's Security Forces.

So I'm reckoning that you'd really have to get quite close-up to the local power struggles to see exactly what's driving individual leaders to make/break allegiances and truces.

But I will predict that the one thing these faction chiefs mostly have in common is a desire to see the Infidel (that's us, BTW) leave their country - preferably as a result of a Jihad in which they can claim a hand.

I'm currently reading Gen Rose's book Washington's War, and find it hard to challenge the way he parallels Brit mistakes in 1776/77 with US ones in Iraq lately. In the chapter I read yesterday he pointed up the brit mistake of relying too heavily on the support of native American warriors: they had no interest in the Brit goals, just their own tribal self-interest, and they were ready to switch off in a heartbeat, any assistance they might have offered the outsiders.

The surge - and thus OIF - depends on the iraqi Army and police to succeed. Go figure, as they say. 8)

Plus ca change. Rose sees this operation as failing beyond redemption since several months ago, as a result of monstrous vanity and ignorance in Washington and Downing Street, and I agree with him all the way.
 
#17
Given that Iraqi Army weapons have a way of finding their way into the hands of insurgents you could call this cutting out the middle man.

Colonel Lang has long experience with such operations and approves:
Can you trust them? Will they be loyal to the Americans (or the government)? Is this "paying protection money?" Will this hurt the Iraqi government?

The answers; No. Not necessarily. No. Maybe (So what!)
The Yanks have explored the limits of cruising round al Anbar at 40mph in Humvees for long enough to know this does not work. When faced with a xenophobic enemy like the tribesmen of the Wild West it may be better simply to get out of their face and leave the foreign fighters to rub up against them until they are sick of Saudi accents and Salafi politics.
 
#18
The last based I worked at in Iraq was a training base for IAF and IPS. At the time the majority of soldiers on base were Shia, in their infinite wisdom, the Americans decided on a Sunni Outreach which flooded the base with over 1000 Sunni recruits, whilst teaching them drill the American Instructors allowed them to sing Marching Songs as they marched around base, some people would think this is fine, however the Shia and Kurdish Soldiers on base took great offence at the content of the songs which were Glorifying Saddam and his regime.

The learned Trainers were oblivious to this until one of the Interpreters asked what the F**k was going on.

The Americans armed UBL in the first place and look how that turned out, in fact they also helped out Saddam, anyone remember the picture of Rumsfeld shaking his hand on a visit to Baghdad.
 
#19
The US never armed UBL, nor did it fund the Taliban. The former had a £200 constuction empire to provide cash, the latter was a creation of the Pakistan inteligence service. The Mujahadeen were the gang the US armed, were subsiquently almost defeated by the Taliban, only to come back as the Northern Alliance after Sept 11th.
 
#20
parapauk said:
The US never armed UBL, nor did it fund the Taliban. The former had a £200 constuction empire to provide cash, the latter was a creation of the Pakistan inteligence service. The Mujahadeen were the gang the US armed, were subsiquently almost defeated by the Taliban, only to come back as the Northern Alliance after Sept 11th.
What version of history are you following, the CIA helped fund the Taliban to fight the Russians during their occupation of Afganistan.
 

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