US snipers being called to account

#1
Case going through the US mil courts.

They are alleging that snipers are putting out shinny things (weapons, PE, det cord) to entice people to pick them up so that they have a reason to shoot them. The idea is that only bad guys will pick up shiny things so are legitimate targets. The real interesting thing is that the head shed has not given an enthusiastic denial, just a “we do not talk about tactics”.

Good idea in a basement in Washington but you cannot always be sure that the shiny thing is picked up by the wrong (right) person. How many times in NI did someone turn up with “I found this, do you want it” or weapons/kit dropped and later handed in. Just remembered it was a favourite trick of the enemy to tamper with army kit and leave it for patrols to find. Remember the ACF lad who lost his arm picking up a right angle torch.

Vela's lawyer, Gary Myers, alleged this week that Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, then kill those who picked up the items. He said his client was acting on "orders."

Asked about the existence of the "baiting program," Drummond said it was unclear "what programs were going on out there and when," especially "if there were things that were done that made the rules of engagement not clear."
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-iraq-soldier-trial,0,7511854.story
 
#4
Hmm how about the other side...

The man behind the charges being leveled against the two Green Berets is Army Lt. Gen. Frank Kearney. Perhaps the general knows something the rest of us don't. But you'll recall, he also (along with Army Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry) kicked a U.S. Marine Special Operations company out of Afghanistan in March after it was alleged the leathernecks used excessive force in beating back an ambush. Kearney took the word of the Afghans over that of the Marines.

http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Yjg3MTg1ODAyY2ZiZjFlZmQ4NDQzNjk5YmQwZDQ1OWM=

Mark Waple, a civilian lawyer for Staffel, said an investigation by the Army's Criminal Investigation Command concluded in April that the shooting was "justifiable homicide," and that Kearney, as the major general commanding all American special operations troops in Afghanistan at the time, proceeded with murder charges against the two soldiers anyway.
 
#5
TA(BW)Stickie said:
MMm US for you, If there killing kids and women for picking up these things then its really hard to justify and totally out of order.
WTF? You honestly think that this incident if TYPICAL of the US forces?? Good heavens!
 
#7
"Woo Hoo! While Kev and I were gearing up to talk football, the phone rang. It was the best of news, all charges dropped against MSG Anderson and CPT Staffel for the shooting of a known terrorist in Afghanistan. This was swift justice and sent a clear message about the actions they took. Our troops must know they have the support of their command when they make life and death decisions based on the rules of that same command. Enjoy your weekend BBQs gentlemen you earned them. We will follow up on just how charges of murder came up in the shooting of a terrorist."

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Blackfive/~3/162686934/exclusive--sf-m.html

ENDEX - charges dropped - snipers not guilty and should never have been charged.

Apology forthcoming TA(BW)? I mean have you actually ever SERVED with the US Forces?
 
#8
It wouldn't be the first time. I remember a Belgian Para telling me about how his lads used to flick coins and sweeties into the wire perimeter of an African camp for the same reason. And his tales of what the FFL got up to were much worse.
 
#9
TA(BW)Stickie said:
Fook US forces are in the headlights for everything why not? Are you trying to say its typical of every force the world?
What a stupid statement. What he's saying is IT'S NOT TYPICAL OF ALL US FORCES. Don't forget we have ou4r own share of nutters a, on top of which it's only an allegation.
 
#10
you have to think of the snipers being specialists and not just opening fire to get a kill for the sake of it, and they would have been in a position of observation for sometime, logging and reporting, maybe even built up a index of potential targets, and then opened fire, its a good tactic IMO and as long as you can justify the shot, then why not?
The insurgents are in places so overconfident it is good to use that against them, make them nervious in there on back yard, and if they are using women and children to plant stuff then"just dont lead em so much"
 
#11
craftsmanx said:
TA(BW)Stickie said:
Fook US forces are in the headlights for everything why not? Are you trying to say its typical of every force the world?
What a stupid statement. What he's saying is IT'S NOT TYPICAL OF ALL US FORCES. Don't forget we have ou4r own share of nutters a, on top of which it's only an allegation.
Which has now been dismissed. I noticed how the Canadian snipers in The Stan were treated. One was awarded the Bronze Star for a world record distance and got well criticised by the morons on the left when he got home. Funny how the lefties never complained when one of theirs tried to assassinate Reagan or Thatcher etc!
 
#12
offog said:
Good idea in a basement in Washington but you cannot always be sure that the shiny thing is picked up by the wrong (right) person. How many times in NI did someone turn up with “I found this, do you want it” or weapons/kit dropped and later handed in. Just remembered it was a favourite trick of the enemy to tamper with army kit and leave it for patrols to find. Remember the ACF lad who lost his arm picking up a right angle torch.
But remember the poor 15 yr old who found a weapon in a graveyard, ran home and informed the police, then went back to the graveyard. A couple of 'them' shot him, thinking he was the terrorist. Poor wee guy. And two poor blades who probably think about it every day. Top tip, don't pick up anything dodgy.
 
#13
Cabarfeidh said:
craftsmanx said:
TA(BW)Stickie said:
Fook US forces are in the headlights for everything why not? Are you trying to say its typical of every force the world?
What a stupid statement. What he's saying is IT'S NOT TYPICAL OF ALL US FORCES. Don't forget we have ou4r own share of nutters a, on top of which it's only an allegation.
Which has now been dismissed. I noticed how the Canadian snipers in The Stan were treated. One was awarded the Bronze Star for a world record distance and got well criticised by the morons on the left when he got home. Funny how the lefties never complained when one of theirs tried to assassinate Reagan or Thatcher etc!
The guy who took a pot-shot at Reagan was a nutcase who was trying to pull Jodie Foster. Bear in mind that delusions aside, it wasn't widely held that she was a tuppence-licker at that time. He was trailing Jimmy Carter before that.
 
#14
Cabarfeidh said:
TA(BW)Stickie said:
MMm US for you, If there killing kids and women for picking up these things then its really hard to justify and totally out of order.
WTF? You honestly think that this incident if TYPICAL of the US forces?? Good heavens!
Well, one of the accused is basing his defence around the argument that this was standard practice, as admitted in an affadavit from the Platoon Leader of the Scout-Sniper Pl, 1Bn, 501 Inf Regt.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/23/AR2007092301431.html

By the way, Cabarfeidh, I think you're confusing two different cases- one in Iraq, one in Afg.
 
#15
PoisonDwarf said:
offog said:
Good idea in a basement in Washington but you cannot always be sure that the shiny thing is picked up by the wrong (right) person. How many times in NI did someone turn up with “I found this, do you want it” or weapons/kit dropped and later handed in. Just remembered it was a favourite trick of the enemy to tamper with army kit and leave it for patrols to find. Remember the ACF lad who lost his arm picking up a right angle torch.
But remember the poor 15 yr old who found a weapon in a graveyard, ran home and informed the police, then went back to the graveyard. A couple of 'them' shot him, thinking he was the terrorist. Poor wee guy. And two poor blades who probably think about it every day. Top tip, don't pick up anything dodgy.
I thought of that after I posted but couldn’t remember the details.

What I find concerning is that it was alleged policy army wide not just something that the guys came up with. How do you know it isn’t some guy who see and realises what it is, decides to remove it from the reach of children and is automatically shot.

You can argue as much as you like that they could be bad guys, but picking shiny things up in the street is not a crime.
 
#16
10-year-old kid walking down the street bends over and picks up a shiny object from the ground and then gets shot in the chest with a follow-on bullet to the head.

Hearts and minds anyone?
 
#17
"10-year-old kid walking down the street bends over and picks up a shiny object from the ground and then gets shot in the chest with a follow-on bullet to the head."

Where - When - Evidence? Or just making statements out of thin air?

crabastic:

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Blackfive/~3/163796024/ltg-kearneys-st.html

This is The Stan one. MSgt Anderson and his immediate boss Capt Staffel.
 
#18
Meanwhile the Iraqi sniper case SPC JG Sandoval has also resulted in no murder charges albeit he DID get done for trying to overegg his case.

"Sniper Acquitted of Murder

A military panel on Friday acquitted U.S. Army Spc. Jorge G. Sandoval on charges he killed two unarmed Iraqis, but it convicted him of planting evidence on one of the men in attempt to cover up the shooting."

So. Iraq and The Stan - both cases no closed and no-one charged with murder or such like. Still think all Yanks are murdering scum TA(BW)?

Can we also now have some evidence for your claim Devil_Dog? What nationality? Where When?

I really don't mind when there is a story or a case for the prosecution in cases like this but too many people seem to lay straight in (a) if Yanks are involved or (b) they can stir things up a bit more without having to take the consequences of their actions or unproven claims. We have seen too many times involving British Forces where we have been asked, quite rightly to wait for the trial and/or result as people are innocent until proven guilty. Funny how some people won't apply this to our colleagues from other nations. 8-(
 
#19
There might be convictions if the yanks weren't exempt from prosecution in innumerable circumstances
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
E The Intelligence Cell 6
C Army Reserve 34
Ord_Sgt Current Affairs, News and Analysis 1

Similar threads

Latest Threads