US ROE - Sama sama for us?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by OldRedCap, Jan 22, 2007.

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  1. Not problems with ROE per se, but problems with the subsequent investigation regime (now largely changed). The imposition of a peacetime approach to investigating each & every incident during periods of intense operations placed intolerable pressure on both the soldiers concerned & the SIB.

    That said, some anecdotal evidence suggested that troops on the ground were reassured that a form of investigation took place as it meant there was some record if there was a later challenge (which possibly says more about the troops' confidence in the CoC/their political masters).

    Others closer to the action (or more current) may have a different view, but I have heard no stories that UK RoE were inappropriate (or not capable of fairly flexible interpretation).

    I'm reading it with clear bias, but the article you attached seems to indicate the mental and cultural struggle by US soldiers only trained for simple high-intensity ops coming to terms with war amongst the people. Reckless killing of civilians is not going to help MN forces in Iraq.
  2. 'Sama sama'

    Kamu bicara bahasa indonesia/malay?
  3. Saya Tatuo. Jon Willy used it in a pm to me. Hadn't heard it since Alor Star in 55'ish days. That was before the 1 horse even got there. My chakup Malayu is long gone other than odd words here and there.
  4. Interesting comment. I ran the sybills in NI mid-70 to mid-72 and established the protocol re as near instant a inquiry as possible. This had to be limited in scope (tps requireq to hold ground whilst forensics undertaken, no inquiry amongst civs by RUC, shortage of sybill meant that GD JNCOs were trained just for shooting incident inquiries). We were well appreciated by the tps on ground for the reason you mention. Where anything went to DPP, the existence of statements from very soon after incident was often crucial factor in decision to bring charges. We were in days of Judges Rules prior to PACE and that may have made things slightly easier re recording statements.
    The mention in article links re the US tps having only a short form of ROE is also relevant. I always argued that trying to put the laws relating to homicide on a piece of yellow card was pie in the sky. We worked by determining what was in the mind of the soldier at the time he squeezed the trigger rather than having them quote chapter and verse from the card.
  5. Tak boleh tahan ... this is an English forum, not a malay forum!

    The level of diversity in ARRSE continues to astound me...

    Off for makan!
  6. Meal at midday was known to the Everlasting Squaddy as kitchy scran.

  7. The requirement for a service police investigation into every shooting inicdent proved unworkable due to the sheer numbers of incidents. Soldiers' statements were along the lines of 'I have been involved in over 30 contacts in the last month. I have no specfic recollection of this incident'. The tactical situation meant any SOCO work was impossible, and there was no hope of interviewing anyone other than the soldiers. Whilst well intentioned, the whole thing became a bit of a farce and another aspect of how the traditional peacetime/wartime divide inherent in our doctrine does not work in modern conflicts. That's not to say that many NI lessons weren't extremely relevant, however - plus, as stated above, the policy was changed pretty quickly to something more suitable for the situation, with discretion at CO level in the first instance. This freed up RMP(SIB) for those investigations that were really necessary, rather than just 'routine' firefights, whilst still preserving an element of basic investigation and a chain of responsbility which are vital to disciplined use of force.

    I think your comment regarding pieces of paper v actual intent is spot on.

    Sorry I don't know any Malay. I think 'poa' means 'fresh' in Swahili, if that's any help, however.
  8. Re Swahili - Si kitu.

    Oh for the days when being a soldier involved LOTS of overseas places.
  9. I'll stick to the minum!
  10. Those day are here again its just shitty places we didnt want when we
    ruled the world :biggrin
  11. I read the article and was impressed by the obvious sincerity and dedication to the mission shown. I was very depressed by the inability to accept reality.

    The whole ROE debate is predicated on the belief that the enemy is a finite and bounded size and that killing or capturing them will result in the achievement of our aims and the frustration of the enemies. When the enemy was the Red Army this was valid. Unfortunately it's not 1980 and it's not the Red Army shooting at us. We do not face an army, we face a bewildering variety of militias from a very complicated ethnic/religious mix.

    Linked to this is the belief that the militias are separate from the people, that is the people will change their behaviour when the militias are dead. Wrong. The militias ARE the people, they fight each other and us as there is no such thing as an Iraqi state, just a patchwork quilt of people who are now free to do what they couldn't under Saddam. Do not forget that Saddam did not rule using the stick alone, he used carrots as well and always knew when to back off.

    The US Army is learning the same lesson the Redcoats learned in North America - namely that conventional high intensity warfare tactics do not work against an armed motivated militia using irregular tactics. It turns out that the NRA are completely correct about the Second Amendment - an armed people cannot be conquered. (As a tangent, anyone seen Red Dawn recently ? I see very distinct parallels with Iraq, indeed I'm waiting for the remake - I wonder what the Sunni/Shia/AQ equivalent of "Go Wolverines" is ?)

    It is pointless to kill an insurgent if the methods used result in the recruitment of another. It is worse than useless to kill an insurgent if the methods used result in the recruitment of 2 or more. Well, unless you are prepared to kill anyone capable of carrying an AK. Therefore if we are going to slot some jundi it must be in a manner that does not recruit for the opposition. But nowhere is this simple truth acknowledged and acted on.

    The way to keep Iraq quiet is to do what Saddam did, be the biggest gang and use the groupings against each other. Forget democracy, freedom and all that nonsense, be good and get some rewards, be bad and get a kicking. And accept you'll be there a long, long time. And that all the neighbours hate you.
  12. Oh so it's all jonwilly's fault.
    Hurt and bleeding will contact Sergey for tea & sympathy.