US Politician Calls for Executions

#3
Depends if it can be shown that he did indeed leak information (which seems a given from comments attributed to him but who knows) and if that information lead to the death of people in the field after the various journo's failed to screen it all properly.

Of course his defense team will say he stipulated it should be screened against such information and Wikileaks, the Gudherian, Das Speigl and the NY Times stuffed that job up.

Personaly I think an actual life sentance, preferably in a military prison doing very hard time indeed may be more of an actual punishment and less likely to make a martyr for freedom of speach/pro-talib/anti-war types. Also prosecute the editor for not showing due dilligence in the screening of names and find out if the 3 newspapers should be held acountable/demonstrate the measures they took to insure the safety of informants (ie did all the papers vet their chunks well but were only given access to some of it or are there 3 or 4 versions flaoting around or what?) and if see if there's a case against any of them. If people have/will die as a result of publishing things that shouldnt have been then he is responcible for publishing. Treason anyone as Australians are in this war?
 
#4
Pretty sickening. It was stupid of Manning not to redact the names because his valid points could have been made without them. But if we're going to shoot everyone who does something stupid, I'm off to buy shares in an ammunition company or two.
 
#5
American politicians, especially on the right, call for the death penalty constantly, it's a sort of throat-clearing for them. Reminds the voters that they've elected a real toughie who will stand up for the right to life and the death penalty.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
American politicians, especially on the right, call for the death penalty constantly, it's a sort of throat-clearing for them. Reminds the voters that they've elected a real toughie who will stand up for the right to life and the death penalty.
Seems fair enough. Reminds me of the story of some murderous septic who was sent to the electric chair. The local US radio station apparently urged their listeners to turn off their electrical appliances at execution time 'so we can really juice the b@stard!'.
 
#7
Then they should line up the politicians that put them there illegally with him,going to get a bit crowded in that courtyard isn´t it?
While(st) I hold no love for most of our modern day pols of any party, I await your explanation of the bolded part.
 
#8
American politicians, especially on the right, call for the death penalty constantly, it's a sort of throat-clearing for them. Reminds the voters that they've elected a real toughie who will stand up for the right to life and the death penalty.
Perhaps. But there are also very many non-politician Americans who also see the need (regrettable as it is) for capital punishment and at the same time (by not accepting the rather IMHO ridiculous assertion of a vocal minority that confuses the execution of a convicted murderer with the killing of an innocent unborn child) advocate protection of the unborn.
 
#9
Perhaps. But there are also very many non-politician Americans who also see the need (regrettable as it is) for capital punishment and at the same time (by not accepting the rather IMHO ridiculous assertion of a vocal minority that confuses the execution of a convicted murderer with the killing of an innocent unborn child) advocate protection of the unborn.
You may be happy with your country being right up there in the premier league with such luminaries as China, Iran and Saudi Arabia when it comes to executing people, the rest of the world tries to be a bit more civilized.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#10
You may be happy with your country being right up there in the premier league with such luminaries as China, Iran and Saudi Arabia when it comes to executing people, the rest of the world tries to be a bit more civilized.
Yes, because diverting money away from health, education, old age pensioners, defence and the disabled etc etc in order to preserve the lives of folk like Sutcliffe, Hindley, Brady and Huntley et al is truly the highest achievement of civilisation. When some of these creatures commit further offences, including murder, on their release, we are positively overwhelmed by gracious living. How about making the Kray Twins posthumous members of the Royal Society?
 
#11
Why not just send him out on a 3-year tour with the Marines doing foot patrols every day ... or put him on covert observation by himself and accidentally leak his location (under a false name to protect his identity, of course)? You could even put a sniper team to cover him ... probably have to wait until Terry had shot him to be sure they weren't just innocent by-standers without a malicious thought in their heads.
 
#12
Yes, because diverting money away from health, education, old age pensioners, defence and the disabled etc etc in order to preserve the lives of folk like Sutcliffe, Hindley, Brady and Huntley et al is truly the highest achievement of civilisation.
It costs 2.5 million dollars more to execute a prisoner than imprison him for life, mostly due to the number of appeals one is entitled to under US law. I would also argue that even a short sentence in any US prison is a worse fate than life in a UK prison. If I ever get bored of cooking, cleaning, laundry, organising my day, paying for a TV licence or getting my hair cut and fancy a regular scrabble partner, I will commit some white collar crime and look forward to a holiday stretch.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
It costs 2.5 million dollars more to execute a prisoner than imprison him for life, mostly due to the number of appeals one is entitled to under US law. I would also argue that even a short sentence in any US prison is a worse fate than life in a UK prison. If I ever get bored of cooking, cleaning, laundry, organising my day, paying for a TV licence or getting my hair cut and fancy a regular scrabble partner, I will commit some white collar crime and look forward to a holiday stretch.
I can think of ways to improve the economics.

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#14
It costs 2.5 million dollars more to execute a prisoner than imprison him for life, mostly due to the number of appeals one is entitled to under US law. I would also argue that even a short sentence in any US prison is a worse fate than life in a UK prison. If I ever get bored of cooking, cleaning, laundry, organising my day, paying for a TV licence or getting my hair cut and fancy a regular scrabble partner, I will commit some white collar crime and look forward to a holiday stretch.
Of course, the societal values and interests involved are not merely those of economics. We have seen other nations and cultures that have used such an "economic" model for similar issues and they are not ones that I would want to be a part of quite frankly.

Whenever the question of a state using its "police" power to take life is involved, I prefer the messy less than economic/scientific debate that requires us to examine the moral and ethical issues as well. As I have said elsewhere in discussing the regrettable, though in my view always necessary due to the nature of mankind, option of capital punishment, law-abiding members of society have a right to be protected from psychopathic predators and the reality is that this may mean the death of such persons if our "system" cannot guarantee that such persons will no longer pose a threat to others.

Our (and from what I have read recently in the UK as well) history and the sad experience of families left without fathers, mothers or children due to the intentional or mistaken premature release of one of these killers tells me at least we cannot make such a guarantee.
 
#15
we cannot make such a guarantee.
Flip side to that is of course that far to many innocent (mostly poor) people have been put to death and later proven to be innocent.

There's been some alarming work on showing death penalty conviction rates for poor people with bad lawyers and what happens when a few are investigated by good legal council...far to high a percentage are over turned. I'll dig up the details if people are intrested but executing even one innocent is to many in my book. For a start the guilty remain unpunished. Of course life should damn well mean life for the worst of the worst. The current British example of the Yorkshire Ripper (20+ life sentances) apealing for the chance of parol!
 
#16
Flip side to that is of course that far to many innocent (mostly poor) people have been put to death and later proven to be innocent.

There's been some alarming work on showing death penalty conviction rates for poor people with bad lawyers and what happens when a few are investigated by good legal council...far to high a percentage are over turned. I'll dig up the details if people are intrested but executing even one innocent is to many in my book.
And you are twice as likely to be sentenced to death as a black man for killing a white man than a white man for killing a white man. Texas executes as many people each year as all the other states combined. I wonder how a country that cannot consistently apply or enforce its laws on killing it's own people can ever claim that it is the right thing to do. You cannot even agree from one state to another.

It is never "necessary" for the state to kill a person, merely in fear that they may somehow, according to it's own legal system, be set free. If this does happen, then there is a problem with the justice system, not the fact that the offender is still breathing.
 
#17
Flip side to that is of course that far to many innocent (mostly poor) people have been put to death and later proven to be innocent.

There's been some alarming work on showing death penalty conviction rates for poor people with bad lawyers and what happens when a few are investigated by good legal council...far to high a percentage are over turned. I'll dig up the details if people are intrested but executing even one innocent is to many in my book. For a start the guilty remain unpunished. Of course life should damn well mean life for the worst of the worst. The current British example of the Yorkshire Ripper (20+ life sentances) apealing for the chance of parol!
Again, I am not saying "my way or the highway" but rather that this is a matter for the people to determine through established Constitutional means. Obviously on such an inherently difficult matter, reasonable minds can differ as to the balance to be struck.

For better or worse, depending on your perspective, in the US system, in spite of continuing political, legal and social efforts to abolish it, the "people have spoken" such that the federal government and separately each state can determine if the death penalty is an "appropriate" punishment. In terms of procedural safeguards, the US Supreme Court also has a role (as do the highest courts in each state) in ensuring (insofar as is humanly possible-and therein lies the rub in that any human system is inherently imperfect) fairness and and as high a bar as possible in terms of the requirements for the ultimate penalty.

Other nations and cultures obviously see this differently, again for better or worse, depending on your individual view.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#18
In Afghanistan we're killing people every day in order to defend our society, whether they're murderers or not. What's wrong with killing a few people who threaten society and have been proven to be doing so via a long and expensive trial process? I can understand those who are against any form of killing but not those who wet the bed and get all 'holier than thou' at the thought of Sutcliffe and Moat types getting the good news but who are non-plussed when we accidently slot civilians, as we inevitably do at some point in the course of a conflict.
 
#19
Hmmm

I accept your arguement but I also suspect that the 'people' would vote for Blood and Circuses if they were given the option. Not that I think the US electorate would be alone in that respect you understand.

There are pro's and cons to every system and I still think the British one has more going for it than against however much the last few generations of politco's have tried to mess it up.
 
#20
I wouldn't have a problem with Private Manning being tried for treason. If it could be shown that his stupid release of names in the report led to their death I would consider the death penalty fair and just. Realistically though I'm not expecting more than a long stretch at the US Disciplinary Barracks at FT Leavenworth, KS, a dishonorable discharge, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. He violated a position of trust and that is the best he can expect.

The Times article said:

Pte Manning was transferred last week from Kuwait to the Marine Corps base in Vermont while the Army decides whether to press charges over a total of 12 offences.
There's no Marine Corps base in Vermont that I've ever heard about. I wonder where the Army really took him? :? :policecap:
 

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