US Marines Response to PC ROEs

#1
In response to the news blurb about the Marine who
put two rounds in a wounded insurgent's head in
Fallujah, here's a response from a Marine:

----------------------------
It's a safety issue pure and simple. After
assaulting through a target, we put a security round
in everybody's head. Sorry al-Reuters, there's no
paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up
"prisoners" and offering them a hot cup a joe,
falafel, and a blanket. There's no time to dick
around on the target. You clear the space, dump
the chumps, and moveon.org.

Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists?
Negative. Hey libs, worried about the defense
budget? Well, it would be waste, fraud, and abuse
for a Corpsman to expend one man-minute or a battle
dressing on a terrorist. Its much cheaper to just
spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.

By the way, in our view, terrorists who chop off
civilian's heads are not prisoners, they are
carcasses. Chopping off a civilian's head is
another reason why these idiots are known as
"unlawful combatants." It seems that most of the
world's journalists have forgotten that fact.

Let me be very clear about this issue. I have
looked around the web, and many people get this
concept, but there are some stragglers. Here is your
situation Marine: You just took fire from unlawful
combatants(no uniform - breaking every Geneva
Convention rule there is) shooting from a religious
building attem pting to use the sanctuary status of
their position as protection. But you're in
Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that
they're not playing that game this time. That was
Najaf. So you set the mosque on fire and you hose
down the terrorists with small arms, launch some
AT-4s (Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the
building and things quiet down. So you run over
there, and find some tangos (bad guys) wounded and
pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide
martyrdom is like really popular with these idiots,
and they think taking some Marines with them would
be really cool. So you can either risk your life
and your fire team's lives by having them cover you
while you bend down and search a guy that you think
is pretending to be dead for some reason. Most of
the time these are the guys with the grenade or vest
made of explosives.


Also, you don't know who or what is in the next
room. You're already speaking English to the rest of
your fire team or squad which lets the terrorist
know you are there and you are his enemy. You are
speaking loud because your hearing is poor from
shooting people for several days. So you know that
there are many other rooms to enter, and that if
anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that
Americans are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds
later), you still have this terrorist (that was just
shooting at you from a mosque) playing possum. What
do you do? You double tap his head, and you go to
the next room, that's what!!!

What about the Geneva Convention and all that Law
of Land Warfare stuff?


What about it. Without even addressing the issues
at hand, your first thought should be, "I'd rather
be judged by 12 than carried by 6."


Bear in mind that this tactic of double tapping a
fallen terrorist is a perpetual mindset that is
reinforced by experience on a minute by minute
basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful
combatant in a Sanctuary, which is a double No-No on
his part. Third, tactically you are in no position
to take "prisoners" because there are more rooms to
search and clear, and the behavior of said terrorist
indicates that he is up to no good. No good in
Fallujah is a very large place and the low end of no
good and the high end of no good are fundamentally
the same . Marines end up getting hurt or die. So
there is no compelling reason for you to do anything
but double tap this idiot and get on with the
mission.

If you are a veteran, then everything I have just
written is self evident. If you are not a veteran,
then at least try to put yourself in the situation.
Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday, there
is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right the hell
NOW. Have you ever lived in NOW for a week? It is
really, really not easy. If you have never lived in
NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big
roller coaster at Six Flags, then shut your hole
about putting Marines in jail for "War Crimes."
 
#3
Trip_Wire said:
Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists?
yes, that is part of the Geneva Conventions, that we signed up to.

TripWire said:
Chopping off a civilian's head is another reason why these idiots are known as "unlawful combatants."
its not what they do, its what we do that is judged, we signed up to the Geneva Conventions, they didnt.

TripWire said:
You just took fire from unlawful combatants(no uniform - breaking every Geneva Convention rule there is) shooting from a religious building attem pting to use the sanctuary status of
their position as protection.
They didnt take fire, the building had a just been cleared by another squad, they walked past each other in the doorway, the enemy combatants didnt break any of the Geneva Conventions, because they hadnt signed up to them.

Thing is, we, our nations have signed up to these Laws of Conflict, the other side havent, they cant therefore be judged on their actions, we however, can be. What the Marine did was an act of bravado for the camera team and it was wrong, regardless of your feelings for the enemy, it was an illegal execution. Footage like that causes the insurgents to 'call for revenge' and more of our troops are killed or maimed because of it, just as they did when photos of the prisoner abuses appeared all over our TVs and papers.

We are supposed to be above such things, arent we after all, the 'civilised' ones?

Am now standing by for the typical US response of questioning whether I have ever served or been to war ala Mil.Com standard reply. The answer to both being yes and still am.
 
#4
Whilst I disagree with analysing a troop's actions purely on the basis of calm hindsight, and have little issue with the incident that is referenced to, I do have some issue with some of the comments in the rant above. I, for one, certainly sent my medic to check out someone I had just had shot. (Once it was safe, of course). The other issue is that just because the other guy isn't following the rules, I don't think that justifies my wholesale disregard for them.

NTM
 
#5
It's just another anonymous email that gets circulated nonstop. Most of them are the product of some fevered mind that has "had it up to here with the Librull Left" or some garbage. Look at the damn thing, it's obviously written, not to confront ones enemies with, but to be smug and self congratulatory.
 
#6
Filbert Fox said:
Am now standing by for the typical US response of questioning whether I have ever served or been to war ala Mil.Com standard reply. The answer to both being yes and still am.
Have a seat.
 
#7
thank you, thats very kind of you
 
#8
Filbert Fox:

Firstly, lets get one thing straight! Trip_Wire didn't 'say' any of the stuff you quote. Got it? The article was posted for reviews and comments both Pro and Con. Just because I post such an article, doesn't mean that I agree with the article in it's entirety.

As a side note, the same thing happened in WWII in the Pacific. The Marines learned the hard way, that Japenese soldiers, were not inclined to surrender and tricked many Marines into exposing themselves and being killed by wounded by 'surrendering' Jap soldiers. Very few Japanese prisoners were taken due to this and their fanaticism.

In this war we have Muslim fanatics, fighting a 'Jihad,' who want to martyr themselves as well as take some 'infidels' with them and collect their Virgins, etc. How do you as a Medic, treat some dude with an explosive belt or grenade ready to blow you up?

In this case; however, some of the things he said and based on what some wounded insurgents have done, in the past in that AO, I can understand his feelings and approach to things.

Secondly, This 'rant' as you refer to it as was a 'quote' from an unidentified US Marine. I didn't write it, or say it! He's entitled to his opinions.

To sum it up, he as a Marine. that fought in that particular battle is trying to express his views, on how he thinks it should be fought. I'm sure the USMC hasn't adopted his ROEs as SOP, nor will they ever.

I think he has the right to express his feelings, on the battle he fought. He was there doing it and knows a lot more about what was needed, at that time, then people like you and I, sitting at our computer desks, second guessing what he did or says. IMHO He does make a few excellent points for the type of combat he was engaged in.
 
#9
Trip_Wire said:
Secondly, This 'rant' as you refer to it as was a 'quote' from an unidentified US Marine. I didn't write it, or say it! He's entitled to his opinions.
In all fairness, I believe I was the one who called it a rant, and I in no way thought it reflected your own personal opinions.

(Note that a rant is not necessarily something which is bad, it's just a monologue to let off steam)

NTM
 
#11
Once again TW posts some tripe without comment and takes offence to being associated with the content, messge, or inferences of said tripe.


I get it now it is Tripe_Wire and not Trip_Wire...shame on me.
 
#12
ctauch said:
Once again TW posts some tripe without comment and takes offence to being associated with the content, messge, or inferences of said tripe.


I get it now it is Tripe_Wire and not Trip_Wire...shame on me.
Do you speak english? Do you even know what the word tripe stands for? Or do you have a Yorkshire dialect? Tripe, IMHO isn't a word that most people would use, to try to say what you wanted to say. :cyclopsani:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe

Perhaps, you should spend more time sniffing your balls and less time writing idiotic statements like you have written here. What has your comments here got to do with the subject matter? If you read what I said to the MOD that posted, you will see that I did express my opinions on the article, etc. Given your 'VAST' military experience and 'background?' why don't you address the article, maybe we'll learn something from your vast knowledge and experience. :cyclopsani:

You really are a piece of work you twit! You due one hitch in the Army, in a peacetime Korea, (No combat experience.) as a cannon cocker, in an Arty unit and reach the pitiful rank SP-4 and got out or was kicked out of the Army. :thumbdown:

Now you are an 'expert,' (?) on all military matters? You need to quit smoking that stuff! :brilsmurf:
 
#14
Soldier_Why said:
Trip_Wire said:
Do you speak english? Do you even know what the word tripe stands for?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe
He does, you obviously don't. :winkrazz:

Tripe
I really wonder about that SW. Here is a quote from my reference website.:

"Tripe is also a term synonymous with rubbish, in the sense of something of little value, or nonsense, and is often used in the Yorkshire dialect."

Given that 'crotch' or whatever is name is, claims to be American, I didn't think he had a Yorkshire dialect. In any case, my remarks were addressed to him and even without the 'Tripe' issue he's still a loser and a twit. :numberone:
 
#15
Trip_Wire said:
How do you as a Medic, treat some dude with an explosive belt or grenade ready to blow you up?
You top him if he tries to detonate it. However, this does not give you carte blanche to execute the wounded on the assumption that all of them will try to kill you.
 
#16
Trip_Wire said:
Filbert Fox:

Firstly, lets get one thing straight! Trip_Wire didn't 'say' any of the stuff you quote. Got it? The article was posted for reviews and comments both Pro and Con. Just because I post such an article, doesn't mean that I agree with the article in it's entirety.

Secondly, This 'rant' as you refer to it as was a 'quote' from an unidentified US Marine. I didn't write it, or say it! He's entitled to his opinions.

I think he has the right to express his feelings, on the battle he fought. He was there doing it and knows a lot more about what was needed, at that time, then people like you and I, sitting at our computer desks, second guessing what he did or says. IMHO He does make a few excellent points for the type of combat he was engaged in.
T_W,

Some constructive advice - It might be easier for all parties if and when you post an article of this nature that you express your own viewpoint and the intent of the post at the outset. Doing it later, after others have responded, as you have in this particular instance just comes across as being lazy, confrontational and fishing for a bite.

On the article itself I find myself in agreement with FF's comments - we're supposed to be the good guys in Iraq... How does the deliberate killing of an injured insurgent measure against that objective? If we stoop to the level of the insurgents behaviour how is the general population supposed to differentiate?

lancslad
 
#17
Carcass said:
Trip_Wire said:
How do you as a Medic, treat some dude with an explosive belt or grenade ready to blow you up?
You top him if he tries to detonate it. However, this does not give you carte blanche to execute the wounded on the assumption that all of them will try to kill you.

I understand what you are trying to say; however, to me its sort of like playing Russian Roulette with six bullets in the revolver or using a semi-auto pistol.

How long do you think it takes to let the spoon go on a hidden grenade or power an electric cap? :sweatdrop:

Do you want to lose your Sqds or Platoon medic, when you may be the next one that needs him?
 
#18
Trip_Wire said:
You due one hitch in the Army, in a peacetime Korea, (No combat experience.) as a cannon cocker, in an Arty unit and reach the pitiful rank
shall we analize said sentence for TRIPE?

1) due should be "do", seeing I am not owed nor DO I owe anything!
2) never stated I was a 13B10 never visted Ft. Sill TDY or otherwise.
3) having stated, in error, that I was a "cannon cocker" it would be redundant to state I was in a Artillery unit where else would a cannon cocker go?
4) I did 2 back to back "hitches" in Korea 90-92 and never eludded otherwise.
5) I served 4 years active and 4 years inactive, per the agrement I signed with the US Government. In 4 years of "peace-time" I asked for and was denied a transfer to the desert (GW1) was involuntairly extended to my "second hitch in Korea" became a E-4(P) by completing PLDC at Camp Jackson KOREA, attended NBC school Camp Casey KOREA and graduated top of my class. My second (really thrid) assignment, Germany I was asked to re-enlist due to a shortage in my MOS. I didn't and you can blame Clinton for that.

Now you can try and savage me as you want. I served just like you, granted I didn't duck bullets and dodge shells, but that was not by choice but by circumstance. In all my PM's to you I have always, except for the last PM, thanked you for your service.

NOW MY RANT!
Face it you are a dithering old cnut that posts inane tripe and fcuk all because you are so riddled with alzheimers you can't create your own cogent thought...it happens and so went my grandmother. She's dead and hopefully you're not to far off. You can malign me as you want because I disagree with your opinion and posting manner, but do not try and malign my service to my country as I have never done the same to yours. You want to sling cr@p and tell me I have a c0ck the size of a peanut I'll take that all day long, call me a mong fine, malign my service given the time and history is way the fcuk off base, and maligns the service of those that went before and after me and "didn't see combat".

Now fcuk off you cnut, lacking a cogent thought of your own that you haven't read in a paper or on the internet.

RANT OFF
 
#19
Would the same people who are very happy to vilify todays Marines for shooting an enemy who has made feigning death an illegal and effective weapon, say the same thing to the face of an WW2 Pacific war veteran?

Of course they wouldn't. WW2 veterans are rightly held in enormous esteem by just about the whole of society, so it seems more than a little hypocritical to almost idolise them, whilst labelling their modern-day counterparts 'war criminals' for making exactly the same decisions for exactly the same reasons.
 
#20
ctauch:

Your funny! :) Yeah I make a typo once in awhile ... so what!

To me all soldiers serving in an Arty unit are 'cannon cockers or 'red legs.' Take your pick!

Four years in the regular Army and 4 years in the Inactive Reserve? Still only a SP-4? I'm not surprised, given your attitude and postings here. To me your still a recruit. Inactive Reserve time doesn't do squat, for you, the Army or your Country. If you would have been a soldier worth your pay, you would have at least made an Sgt. E-5 in that four year period.

As for your version of my medical conditions, etc. What a load of crap! My health is just fine for my age, etc.

BTW: I don't sit around and "scratch my nuts and sniff," all day like you say you do.
 

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