US Justice Department pulls another bone-headed move

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by jumpinjarhead, Jul 7, 2011.

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  1. Another example of our Justice Department (yes, the same one that among various faux pas due to its politicization contrary to the Constition handled the issue of civil trials in the US for terrorists at Gitmo and the one that dropped charges against the New Black Panther Party for blatant voter intimidation against whites coming to vote in the 2008 presidential election that put Him in office).

    It is ironic that the code name for this completely botched operation was "Gunrunner."


    Here is the background of this scandal:

    Watch video here:
    Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News

    Here is the latest as of yesterday:

    In spite of this incredible screw up by the same government that assures us it can take care of our health, security and every other thing we need!!! Hah!
     
  2. ATF seems to be getting a bad press at the moment JJH.

    Didn't they balls up a huge Hells Angels sting in Arizona a while ago?
    Pretty much a water tight case ruined by bad management techniques resulting in most of the perps getting low sentences or nothing at all IIRC.
     
  3. ATF, sadly, has a history of screwups over the past couple of years.
     
  4. I'm just a Brit, but was the Waco thing ever considered to be an ATF success?
     
  5. Well a few less tooled up crazies in the world can only be a good thing :)
     
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  6. Their screw ups are legion but in this case they were pushing back on a ill-conceived op and the Justice Department for political reasons intervened and now curiously denies any involvement. I hasten to add I am no fan of the ATFE in general, although I rarely criticize serving law enforcement officers except in individual cases where they deserve it. My displeasure is mainly that the ATFE has been hijacked by superior ideologues over the last 25 years or so (both parties by the way although taken to a new level by the current administration both to placate the gun-control part of the base of voters and some of our current Masters are also anti-gun ideologues since control of the people is a fundamental tenet of progressivism).

    My personal beef with the ATFE is at the policy level where they have turned their raison d'etre on its head in terms of how law-abiding owners of firearms are concerned. Originally, their remit in this regard was to foster gun ownership for law-abiding citizens in keeping with the Second Amendment but due to the pressure from above the approach of the ATFE is now to put every impediment (ridiculous paperwork, frequent "raids" on owners of large numbers of firearms just because the have so many and then pick through every slip of paper to see if an "i" is not dotted or a "t" crossed. It is even worse for those of us who deign to have automatic weapons and suppressors. (to my knowledge there has only been one instance of a crime being committed or a fatal injury due to negligent or unsafe discharge by a duly licensed owner of such weapons).
     
  7. Let's just say it was not the ATF's finest hour and shows the problems that can occur with the trend over the last 25 years to militarize law enforcement that regrettably too often means heavily armed officers who are often not sufficiently vetted or trained to perform such missions and are driven to excessive force by the excitement of the op itself and the fact they are so highly tooled up when compared to their handgun-carrying counterparts on the beat.
     
  8. This pretty much confirms what I have heard and read about bad and contrary management in what should be a respected organisation.

    Thanks for clarification.
     
  9. Oh god no, if you ever saw the video of their raid....

    One agent slipped on the ladder and put 3 rounds though his foot from his MP5. Another wounded a fellow agent in a shootout on the 2nd flr, his rounds going through the wall and hitting agents outside on the roof.

    Goatfuck, Clusterfuck, Circle Jerk, but success?

    IIRC ATF hasnt had a permanent director appointed by Obama Yet.
     
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  10. In my corner of the US the BATF agents I have dealt with are good competent guys (and gals). Problems arise when they are engaged in active criminal investigations in conjunction with local officers and get pulled off to go visit licensed gunsmiths and dealers to make sure all those damned "i"'s and "t"s are dotted and crossed. That said, their accelerant sniffer dogs, usually Labs, are top shelf working dogs. Sometimes hard to get themm to come out as the handler is busy reviewing inventory and paperwork at a shop but...Agents are OK but the political pressure from above makes it hard for them.
     
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  11. That may be, yet every time the local sheriff took Koresh in he merely knocked on the door and the man went quietly.

    ATF claimed Drug Manufacturing going on which got them Texas National Guard Hueys for support. Governor Ann richards said they would never again get anything from Texas for lying about that. The Grenades were part of a semi humorous "Complaint department-Take a Number" plaques the group made and sold. It turned out they had no Illegal automatic weapons either.

    Most of the reasons for ATF involvment turned out to be lies by ATF agents.

    Now the religious nutter part made them deserve to die? If so why havent we incinerated Farrakhan and Nation of Islam?

    The only complaint that may have been justified was child abuse, but since the feds burned everyone to death by pumping CS diluted with Acetone into the building, we'll never know for sure.

    24 British Nationals among the 8o who died during the second breach.

    All in all not a proud day for Law enforcement or the country
     
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  12. Apologies if my last offended was just an off the cuff crack in poor taste. Koresh was as mad as a box of frogs and a good number of his followers were as well in all likelihood and to be honest I won't have been comfortable with them having any weapons but the raid was a cluster**** and very few people deserve to die like that.
     
  13. I apolgise to JJH as I feel that my post about Waco has dragged the topic off course.

    But just one more thing (with apologies to the late great Lt Columbo) ;

    When I saw the attack on Waco I thought the National Guard or even the Regulars had gone in.
    Tanks and all sorts seemed to be there and I was distinctly unimpressed, a little heavy handed I thought at the time.
    WTF rather than ATF came to my mind anyway.

    I did get the impression that ATF were trying to 'sex up' their image and I don't think that turf wars are unknown between the various Federal Agencies. I wonder if the ATF were 'showing off' and it just went out of control.
     
  14. Agreed--rarely have any problem with the actual agents on the pointy end of things. The problems are bureaucratic and political. I have 2 friends who are or were ATFE (one now with Secret Service) who expressed massive frustration at the mid-level administrators (not one of whom had been on the street and appeared to be largely affirmative action hires) and the political level that drove most of the policies and too many of their missions.
     
  15. NO need for apologies old man.

    It bears mentioning that we have strict laws about the use of regular military forces or equipment for civil law enforcement purposes (short of a major collapse of order) because of our concern, embedded at several points in our Constitution about regular military interference with civil matters and the danger to freedom that represents. Indeed, as I teach my students, it is no coincidence that the vast majority of major regular military installations (and all of those where operational combat troops are garrisoned) are out in the hinterlands (or were until development reached them as at Camp Pendleton).

    If any of you have ever been to Fort Bragg (home of the paras and Army special forces) or Camp Lejeune/Cherry Point (home of the 2d Marine Division, MARSOC and the 2d Marine Air Wing) you can relate to this phenomenon as Fayetteville NC and Jacksonville/Havelock NC are not what one would consider major cities (understatement). Also, when I ask them if they have ever traveled internationally and seen more military presence, even including formations of fully armed troops marching down major city streets in the middle of the day (and not part of a parade) and not just in 3rd world dictatorships but even in several capitals of western Europe.

    Without exception they say yes and I then ask them when they have ever seen that in the US. The answer is never (except in major civil unrest where proper authorization has been issued by the President). At most you might see a military convoy traveling down our interstate highways (like your M roads) and that is ALWAYS an attention -getter for the other motorists since it is so uncommon to see military forces anywhere in the US. While most Americans respect our military (in some manner--mostly very lackadaisically), we as a people also fear what it can do if unleashed domestically.
     
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