US Army recruiting problems

HarryPalmer said:
The empty promises of an army under siege

MANCHÁN MAGAN

Sat, Jan 24, 2009

The US army spends billions on touring schools and recruitment offices with promises of college fees and thousands of dollars in bonuses to meet its quota of 100,000 recruits a year. A group of war veterans, however, say that the targeted teenagers are only getting half the story, writes MANCHÁN MAGAN.

THE SANTA FE PLACE shopping centre in New Mexico is like any other US mall – clumps of teenagers in skater-boy or emo-girl clothes slurp oversized drinks as they wander aimlessly around Gap, Victoria’s Secret and Radio Shack, yet at the far end, between JC Penney and the Pretzel Zone, is something quite alien: a line of army, navy, marine and air-force recruiting offices, all with glossy airbrushed images of gung-ho young recruits in high-tech battledress and Apache helicopters looming overhead.

“Are you army strong?” demands a sign above a panel of photographs of local youths who’ve just enlisted. Their names, schools and the unit in which they will serve are listed – as well as the most important line, the cash bonus each receives upon entry and the extra funds promised for college education. A mischievous-looking Hispanic boy from Mesa Vista High School is getting a $20,000 (€15,418) bonus as well as a possible $37,000 (€28,524) for his college education, while a curly-haired blonde girl from Santa Fe Community College gets a whopping $37,000 (€28,524) for joining a mortuary-affairs unit.

That morning on NPR radio a woman recounted her experiences in mortuary affairs in Iraq. “I saw brains leaking out from heads, and saw eyes that had been popped out of sockets,” Charlotte Brooke recalled. “Bodily fluids dripped on my boots.” Could that be worth a $37,000 bonus – even in a poor US state such as New Mexico where the average annual income is less than that?

Inside the army recruiting office the atmosphere is ebullient. The team of recruiters, which covers 27,000km of mostly desert, has been unusually busy all day with kids looking for information. Senior officer sergeant first class Pilar Sauceda says the army would like him to think that this is due to a recent $1.35 billion (€1.04 billion) “Army Strong” advertising campaign, but he isn’t so sure. He’s just glad of the break. His job has been getting increasingly difficult as the number of dead service personnel continues to rise – last year was the highest since the war began. As recruit numbers decrease the army has had to lower its acceptance criteria, allowing in more high-school dropouts and applicants with low aptitude scores and criminal backgrounds, and also giving more waivers for medical problems, such as attention deficit disorder.

The army needs 100,000 new recruits each year, according to Sauceda, and he and his men are expected to meet a recruitment target each month – the pressure gets higher as the month goes on. If they don’t succeed they may find themselves strapping their battle-gear back on and being shipped out. Amid allegations of unethical behaviour, the US army closed all recruiting offices for a day in 2005 to retrain them in proper practice. Sauceda promises his men behave well. He wants to shake off the image of recruiters as “used car salesmen”.

“People expect the truth,” he says. “The parents and girlfriends will look me in the eye and insist, almost threaten me, to bring their boy back alive.”

Most of the recruiters’ time is spent going around high schools, youth events and public festivals – anywhere they’re likely to come upon young people who are uncertain about their future. The army’s recruiting manual outlines that each student should be contacted at least three times. “First during the summer . . . this plants awareness of the army in their minds. Remember, first to contact, first to contract . . . You will probably need to tailor your sales message.”

THEIR WORK IS made more difficult by “counter-recruiters” – voluntary groups of concerned parents and disillusioned military veterans who aim to inform students about the recruiters’ “misinformation”. Tim Origer is a Vietnam veteran who helped devise a full disclosure recruitment programme for the organisation Veterans for Peace. They use it when the visit schools to provide information in response to the recruiters’ pitches. Origer says the “truth” offered by most recruiters follows the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.

Unless you ask the specific “right” question you will not be told, for example, that the contract you sign is binding only to you, not the army, and that the fees promised for college are not guaranteed. Only 5 per cent of recruits get the full amount offered, while two-thirds get nothing at all.

“War is not about winning hearts or minds; it’s about killing the enemy before they kill you,” Origer and his fellow Iraq and Vietnam veterans tell the teens in schools. “Kids need to know it’s not just smart bombs and surgical strikes – the building you blow up might contain an insurgent, but women and children too. You have to live with that for your life.”

Despite their differences, Sauceda and Origer have much in common – both proudly list youngsters they have managed to “convince” in the last few days. Origer accepts that he cannot compete with the recruiters’ resources: they tour schools and public events with Nascar sports cars, mobile rock-climbing walls and military Humvees equipped with computer games and rifle simulators; he relies on what he calls the students’ “inner bullshit detector”. He tells them how he is still haunted by the memory of the night he and his men blew up a Vietnamese shack because it had a candle burning inside – only later to discover that it was occupied by an elderly man who had got up to go to the lavatory.

“They know we’re telling the truth,” Origer says. “We’ve no quota to fill.” But he readily admits that his group aren’t as engaging as the recruiters, who are specially chosen to be the army’s poster-boys – the brightest and best. They are the “sort of person you’d trust – the friend you’d want to have,” Origer says. On a MySpace page, one of Sauceda’s recruiting officers describes himself as having “a Bachelors degree in being smooth and a minor in slappin the taste outta yo mouth”. Another says he’s a “quiet, shy guy . . . you know, the kind that holds on to a red stapler and you’re kind of weirded out by because you know he probably has guns . . . lots of guns”. In contrast, Tim Origer describes himself as “a grizzly Vietnam Vet with a prosthetic leg”.

As the Iraq war becomes increasingly unpopular, Sauceda finds it more difficult to gain access to schools, particularly in wealthier areas. Principals and guidance teachers restrict access, although by doing so they endanger their funding.

In 2002 Donald Rumsfeld enacted a law that gave recruiters free access to all public secondary schools and made it compulsory to provide them with pupils’ private contact details as part of the “No Child Left Behind” initiative. This, backed up by the Pentagon’s Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps database (which contains details of 30 million 16-25-year-olds, including e-mail addresses, mobile numbers, ethnicities and extracurricular activities) allows Sauceda and his men to target students individually.

Sauceda says that at first, he looks for students with a bold, determined gaze – patriotic, flag-waving youths. After that, he tries to find the ones who need help paying for college. His aim is to become a friendly, trusted figure in the students’ lives and to inform them of the options available.

THE ARMY PROVIDES a stable, rewarding career and, for many, it’s their only hope of college. Sauceda acknowledges that the $400-a-month wage is low, but says the cash bonus, healthcare and college fees make for a fair offer. He is always upfront with the recruits. The first question they ask is, “will I end up in Iraq?”, and he admits that in all likelihood they will. After their nine weeks’ basic training they could be shipped out within 72 hours if they are in a rapid deployment unit. He tries to avoid the students who are obviously afraid of him, the ones who think he is out to ensnare them.

Tim Origer says that he often finds himself face-to-face with recruiters as they trail each other around various schools and youth events and he realises that they have a lot more in common than they would like to admit.

Both groups, he says, recognise that army life is brutal, that 18 US soldiers commit suicide each day, that post-traumatic stress disorder means many veterans are not fit for college, even if they do end up getting the promised funds, but the basic truth is that for many young people in New Mexico the army offers the only chance of escape from the spiralling poverty that entrapped their parents and grandparents. It’s a risk worth taking.

As one of the teenagers hanging around the mall said when I asked him what he thought of the recruiting offices, “they’re still trying to draft us, the only difference is that now it’s an economic draft”.

© 2009 The Irish Times

Link

Just as an aside, the author of this piece - Manchán Magan - is from what is laughably termed 'Republican aristocracy' in Dublin; his great grand-uncle (Michael J. O'Rahilly or 'The O'Rahilly' as he preferred to be known) was killed during the 1916 Rising, his grandmother was an Anti-Treaty Republican during the Irish Civil War, and if his mother is who I think she is, then she's cozy with senior members of Sinn Féin. This background might explain the tone of the article.
 
A few responses to "Army Recruiting Problems." The length of Boot camp and "Advanced Infantry Training is elective dependent upon personnel needs/losses in the combat zone. Marine Boot early in Vietnam was 15 weeks. My own in 1967 was 11 weeks. By the time I had deployed to combat boot for Marines was 9 weeks. Charley was filling body bags faster than we could make soldiers. My A(dvanced) I(nfantry) T(raining) was three days. My pay as a Private was $80 per month with a $20 a month bump for hazardous duty in a combat zone.

Veterans for Peace - A group composed of Veterans and civilians who believe war serves little purpose other than filling the pockets of the rich and perpetuating more war. Read "War is a Racket"
by Smedley Butler, Marine Corps Officer and 3 time medal of honor winner to get a perspective on America's wars from the 34 year career of an officer and combat veteran. Most combat veterans, once recovered from the patriotic B.S. and the adrenalin rush of killing other humans actually take an anti-war political position. I am referring of course, to combat veterans who actually walk, boots on the ground in a combat zone and participate in "close-in killing," not those who kill by "smart weapon" or air craft, or from 30 miles away using heavy weaponry. These close in killers (mostly infantry) only number 1 out of every 5 to 7 active duty soldiers. Of the 25 million veterans of all wars made in America, they total 6 million or 1.3% of the U.S. population. Office pogues and REMF's love to tell stories about the "glory of war", unfortunately the stories they tell are usually not their own but liberated from the lives of combat soldiers.

Recruiters do have quotas and are transferred to s***hole duty stations if they are not met. All Marines are infantry first and secondary MOS second; screw up or piss-off the wrong individual and you can very easily find yourself serving in a combat zone. (and yes, just like the real world, you can actually find assholes in the Military too.)

I have worked for the V(eterans) A(dministration) processing educational benefits for veterans in a college environment. There are a labyrinth of time limits and regulations to work through to access benefits which become overwhelming to some veterans. For others, access to benefits might require one or more appeals of claims to the V.A. Board of Appeals, a process which can literally take years. Most combat veterans I have met in school, quit either because of the V.A. bureaucratic bullshit they were forced to endure or because of the psychological crap they were carrying around from the war. After spending a year or more killing people or destroying their homes and environments, a lot of the shit encountered in school seems pretty meaningless.

PTSD, Brain trauma injury, lack of access to medical or compensatory benefits, all have the effect of radically altering your perspective on life. To support the truth of this consider the 25 U.S. Army suicides in January of 2009 alone(from a current average of 19 per month in the US according to the VA's own statistics). More of our soldiers are dying by their own hand in response to their military experiences than are being killed by the "enemy."

I am a USMC combat veteran, a volunteer disabled in Vietnam. My father was a volunteer WWII combat Marine who served in Guadalcanal. I am proud of my service, my fellow Marines, but I am neither blind nor intellectually challenged. Americas greatest resource, the youth who would serve country first and self second are wasted and abused to fill the pockets those who NEVER will and NEVER have put themselves nor their families at risk or within harms way. They (like as the recent coward who held court in the oval office) deserve no less than trial and punishment for their contemptible actions against the American people and the World community overall.

Many of the individuals in Veterans for Peace or Vietnam Veterans against the War, or Iraq Veterans Against the War speak out not because they are "disaffected" "Leftists" but rather because they are veterans who have actually experienced war, and doing so have learned from their experiences. Many of us still hold to our oath of enlistment to "defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC." We do this even if it incurs the wrath of the talking heads who spit out the sound bytes crafted by the creators of Fox News fantasies. You want the truth… ask. You want the truth about War ask a veteran who has not only experienced war but lived life long enough to recover from the experience. Dissident Peace TEO USMC Retired
 
junglerot said:
Veterans for Peace - A group composed of Veterans and civilians who believe war serves little purpose other than filling the pockets of the rich and perpetuating more war. Read "War is a Racket"[/u] by Smedley Butler, Marine Corps Officer and 3 time medal of honor winner to get a perspective on America's wars from the 34 year career of an officer and combat veteran.
2 time winner, reccomended for a 3rd and a Nutter....

junglerot said:
Most combat veterans, once recovered from the patriotic B.S. and the adrenalin rush of killing other humans actually take an anti-war political position. I am referring of course, to combat veterans who actually walk, boots on the ground in a combat zone and participate in "close-in killing," not those who kill by "smart weapon" or air craft, or from 30 miles away using heavy weaponry. These close in killers (mostly infantry) only number 1 out of every 5 to 7 active duty soldiers. Of the 25 million veterans of all wars made in America, they total 6 million or 1.3% of the U.S. population. Office pogues and REMF's love to tell stories about the "glory of war", unfortunately the stories they tell are usually not their own but liberated from the lives of combat soldiers.
I'm a Combat veteran, Infantryman (MOSC:11B3H) & spent a Year in Baghdad patrolling Route Irish and Radwiniyah, al-A'amiriyah, Mansour, Jihad, Yarmook, Adamiyah Muhallas. Did Raids, Cordons & Searches, Route Clearence, Night Interdiction patrols, Ambushes, Mounted & Dismounted Patrolling. Seen Mates Die, Seen Mates Bleeding out, been bleeding myself and I am Not anti-war in the fashion you would espouse.

But then we didnt smoke dope all night :wink:

junglerot said:
Recruiters do have quotas and are transferred to s***hole duty stations if they are not met. All Marines are infantry first and secondary MOS second; screw up or urine-off the wrong individual and you can very easily find yourself serving in a combat zone. (and yes, just like the real world, you can actually find assholes in the Military too.)
Bullsh_t, a recruiter isnt shipped off to combat if he doesnt make quota. He will recieve bad NCOER's(Non-Com Evaluation Report), he will not be promoted ahead of or with his peer group. He can be transferred to a Worse area, But he emphatically is not handed a Rifle and told to get on an Iraq Bound airplane. I'd sincerely like to see the name of ONE recruiter this alledgedly happened too.

junglerot said:
I have worked for the V(eterans) A(dministration) processing educational benefits for veterans in a college environment. There are a labyrinth of time limits and regulations to work through to access benefits which become overwhelming to some veterans. For others, access to benefits might require one or more appeals of claims to the V.A. Board of Appeals, a process which can literally take years. Most combat veterans I have met in school, quit either because of the V.A. bureaucratic bullshit they were forced to endure or because of the psychological crap they were carrying around from the war. After spending a year or more killing people or destroying their homes and environments, a lot of the s*** encountered in school seems pretty meaningless.

junglerot said:
PTSD, Brain trauma injury, lack of access to medical or compensatory benefits, all have the effect of radically altering your perspective on life. To support the truth of this consider the 25 U.S. Army suicides in January of 2009 alone(from a current average of 19 per month in the US according to the VA's own statistics). More of our soldiers are dying by their own hand in response to their military experiences than are being killed by the "enemy."
I had not one whit of a Problem getting treatment from the VA. All I had to do was bring in my DD-214(Discharge Papers for UK readers). That day I recieved an eye exam, Blood work, hearing test, dental exam, And Prelimenary X-Rays ( I needed an MRI, and the Xray would determine if Schrapnel was still inside me).

I had not one problem getting Physical Therapy appointments for 4 days a week to regain full usage of my right arm. I was constantly pestered to file for a 30% PTSD claim even though I have no such symptoms (I declined it).

Of the 675 odd men in My Infantry battalion there has not been 1 Suicide, 1 Murder, 1 Felony since returning in 2005. That includes the men who ETS'd (Discharged). We are all from the same area of New York.



junglerot said:
Many of the individuals in Veterans for Peace or Vietnam Veterans against the War, or Iraq Veterans Against the War speak out not because they are "disaffected" "Leftists" but rather because they are veterans who have actually experienced war, and doing so have learned from their experiences. Many of us still hold to our oath of enlistment to "defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC." We do this even if it incurs the wrath of the talking heads who spit out the sound bytes crafted by the creators of Fox News fantasies. You want the truth… ask. You want the truth about War ask a veteran who has not only experienced war but lived life long enough to recover from the experience. Dissident Peace TEO USMC Retired

You are dissident Leftists

Darnell Steven Summers is one of your more public members:

He volunteered for the US Army and served from 1966 to 1970. While home on leave before going to Vietnam in 1968 he became involved in the struggle to found the »Malcolm X Cultural Center« (MXCC) in Inkster Michigan, a suburb of Detroit and was one of the spokespersons for the »MXCC«. His political affiliations included membership in the Black Workers Congress, Viet Nam Veterans Against The War / Viet Nam Veterans Against The War (Anti-Imperialist), chartermember of the Malcolm X Cultural Center(Inkster Michigan).

The Black Worker’s Congress (BWC) was created in 1971 in response to a manifesto written by the League of Revolutionary Black Workers (League). The BWC would be a separate organization that would be used to expand the League across the United States. The BWC was also used to coordinate Revolutionary Union Movement and Black Workers caucuses.


The formation of the League was an attempt to form a more cohesive political organ guided by the principles of Black liberation and Marxism-Leninism in order to gain political power and articulate the specific concerns of Black workers through political action. While the League was only active for a short period of time, it was a significant development in a time of increasing militancy and political action by Black workers and in the context of both the Black liberation and Marxist-Leninist movements in the United States


Your also a Bunch of "Truthers" :roll:

daytona.jpg


Your Gene Marx(appropriate last name) a local peace activist and member of the Bellingham Veterans for Peace, Chapter 111 wants Bellingham Wash. to become a Sanctuary City for Deserters
 
You want the truth… ask. You want the truth about War ask a veteran who has not only experienced war but lived life long enough to recover from the experience.

To me that reads like "You want the truth about war? Ask a veteran who has not only experienced war but that has come round to my point of view".
 
"2 time winner, reccomended for a 3rd and a Nutter..."
Sorry ...don't take it out on me that the Army hasn't as yet produced anyone with a comparable combat record...

"I'm a Combat veteran, Infantryman (MOSC:11B3H) & spent a Year in Baghdad patrolling Route Irish and Radwiniyah, al-A'amiriyah, Mansour, Jihad, Yarmook, Adamiyah Muhallas. Did Raids, Cordons & Searches, Route Clearence, Night Interdiction patrols, Ambushes, Mounted & Dismounted Patrolling. Seen Mates Die, Seen Mates Bleeding out, been bleeding myself and I am Not anti-war in the fashion you would espouse.

But then we didnt smoke dope all night"

What is the ratio of civilian (non-combatant) dead to "insurgent" dead in your particular version of guerilla war? In what variation of "civilization" is it honorable (or even legal for that matter)to kill unarmed men women and children, just because they happen to live in the neighborhood? It happened in my war and its happening in yours. Calling the dead collateral damage does nothing to change the morality or legality of what has occurred. There are also 2-3% of the military population who are attracted to military service because they are socio or psychopathic. I still hold that most who glorify war 1.) have not yet come to terms with what they have done. or 2.) are claiming the experiences of others as their own. or 3.) are sociopathic and perhaps the best suited to be in an environment of killing or being killed.

"I had not one problem getting Physical Therapy appointments for 4 days a week to regain full usage of my right arm. I was constantly pestered to file for a 30% PTSD claim even though I have no such symptoms (I declined it).

Of the 675 odd men in My Infantry battalion there has not been 1 Suicide, 1 Murder, 1 Felony since returning in 2005. That includes the men who ETS'd (Discharged). We are all from the same area of New York. "

You are fortunate ...I too rejected my claims for PTSD for nearly 17 years until I was far enough removed from my combat experience to examine it closely. For many returning veterans, the onset of PTSD symptoms does not begin for 3 months to several years after the veteran has left the combat environment.

The VA's own stats for returning veterans :
Regarding the figure of 16 suicides Ira Katz, the head of mental health at the VA, confirmed the statistics and added "'VA's own data demonstrate 4-5 suicides per day among those who receive care from us."

Backlog for claims in 2008: Over 600,000 Average 6 month waiting period to process 1st decision. VA Appeals: over 40,000 pending with and average of 1000 days before they are heard. If veterans claims for benefits are denied there is no medical care nor compensation until the appeal process is complete an overall process which can take up to four (4) years.

A consistent statistic of all wars is 1/3 of all returning veterans commit misdemeanor or felony offenses upon their return. Hence, the efforts underway in several states and at the Federal level of government to establish "veterans courts" to deal with veteran specific issues.

"You are dissident Leftists"

BIOYA...Veterans for Peace, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Vietnam Veterans Against the War DOES NOT EQUALViet Nam Veterans Against The War (Anti-Imperialist) a splinter group any more than some soldiers are communists equals all soldiers are communist.
 
junglerot said:
"2 time winner, reccomended for a 3rd and a Nutter..."
Sorry ...don't take it out on me that the Army hasn't as yet produced anyone with a comparable combat record...

It's ok, i understand Marines can be ignorant :twisted:

There have been several 2 time winners of the Medal of Honor who werent Marines

List of the Nineteen 2 time recipients of the Medal of Honor

These men recieved both the Army & Navy Medal of Honor for the same action:

GySgt Charles F. Hoffman
aka: Ernest August Janson Jun 6, 1918 2nd Division, 5th Regiment

Sgt Louis Cukela Jul 18, 1918 2nd Division, 5th Regiment

KIA Sgt Matej Kocak Jul 18, 1918 2nd Division, 5th Regiment

Pvt John Joseph Kelly Oct 3, 1918 2nd Division, 6th Regiment

KIA Cpl John Henry Pruitt Oct 3, 1918 2nd Division, 6th Regiment

These men received 2 awards for seperate actions

2d Lt. Thomas Ward Custer Army Civil War
1st AWARD Apr 3, 1865
2d AWARD Apr 6, 1865

Pvt Henry Hogan Army Indian Wars
1st AWARD Oct 21, 1876
2d AWARD Sep 30, 1877

Sgt. William Wilson Army Indian Wars
1st AWARD Mar 28, 1872
2d AWARD Sep 29, 1872

O/Seaman Robert A. Sweeney Navy Interim 1871-1898
1st AWARD Oct 26, 1881
2d AWARD Dec 20, 1883

Cpt/MT Albert Weisbogel Navy Interim 1871-1898
1st AWARD Jan 11, 1874
2d AWARD Apr 27, 1876

Cpt/H Louis Williams
aka Ludwig Andreas Olsen Navy Interim 1871-1898
1st AWARD Mar 16, 1883
2d AWARD Jun 13, 1884

Watertender John King Navy Interim 1899-1910
1st AWARD May 29, 1901
2d AWARD Sep 13, 1909


Frank Dwight Baldwin Army
1st AWARD Civil War Jul 12, 1864
2d AWARD Indian Wars Nov 8, 1874

John Cooper
aka: John Laver Mather Navy
1st AWARD Civil War Aug 5, 1864
2d AWARD Interim 1865-1870 Apr 26, 1865

John Lafferty
aka: John Laverty Navy
1st AWARD Civil War May 25, 1864
2d AWARD Interim 1871-1898 Sep 14, 1881

Patrick Mullen Navy
1st AWARD Civil War Mar 17, 1865
2d AWARD Interim 1865-1870 May 1, 1865

Daniel Joseph Daly USMC
1st AWARD China Aug 14, 1900
2d AWARD Haiti Oct 24, 1915

John McCloy Navy
1st AWARD China Jun 20, 1900
2d AWARD Mexico Apr 22, 1914

Smedley Darlington Butler USMC
1st AWARD Mexico Apr 22, 1914
2d AWARD Haiti Nov 17, 1915
 
jay2o said:
i have heard that the regular US army are undertrained tho
seems like theres a real gap between army and USMC

I spent a long time in Iraq with Marines. The Army's combat arms units--infantry, arty, armor--aren't really any more or less trained than the USMC.

If it came down to mechanized warfare I'd go with the Army over the Marines any day (I was with an Army Cav unit in Desert Storm and the Marines 1st Division during the OIF invasion).

It's really at the larger level that the Army seems under-trained--National Guard units, Reserve units and support units are all suspect in terms of quality (or at least they were before having 2 or 3 deployments under their belt).

The USMC has had much better 'quality control' across the board reaching into support units and their reserve units although, again, with 2 or 3 deployments NG and support units have upped their game I think.
 
Smedley Butler: Awarded 2 Medals of Honor and Brevet Medal:

Brevet Medal”, the decoration was considered to be the equivalent of the Navy Cross, although in precedence it ranked just behind the Medal of Honor, since those receiving the award had received field commissions as Marine Corps officers, under combat conditions, and had performed feats of distinction and gallant service. Initially however, the Brevet Medal ranked behind the Navy Distinguished Service Medal. The award was only issued to twenty Marine Corps active, retired, and discharged personnel.[1]

Again, the response is not about whose is bigger or longer or better but the fact that someone so "intelligent" would cast aspersions upon the reputation of any member of the military with Smedley Butler's record, branding him a "nutter" because his opinion of military mission (not service) did not parrot the opinions of the politicos who have so often misused our servicemen and women.
 

SmithsRail

War Hero
[quoteThe first question they ask is, “will I end up in Iraq?”, and he admits that in all likelihood they will. After their nine weeks’ basic training they could be shipped out within 72 hours if they are in a rapid deployment unit.[/quote]

Enlighten me as to how the fcuk any unit could be readily trained to go in to battle after 9 weeks training?

Lambs to the slaughter I'd say.



[edit]Mongness.
 
Regarding Patton and his great respect for Veterans:

In June 1932 a small band of World War One Veterans calling themselves the Bonus Expeditionary Force or BEF started gathering in Washington to protest Congress' delay in the payment of the War Bonds(bonus') they were promised. By mid August their numbers had grown to between 15,000 and 40,000 depending on the source as more and more Veterans and their families gathered in Washington demanding that they be paid. President Hoover ordered General Douglas Macarthur to evict the Veterans. Macarthur ordered then Majors George Patton and Dwight Eisenhower to mobilize the Federal troops out of Fort Myers, Virginia.

Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, Fort Myer, Virginia, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of Civil Service employees left work to line the street and watch the U.S. Army attack its own veterans. Hundreds of veterans were injured, several were killed — including William Hushka and Eric Carlson; a veteran's wife miscarried; and many other veterans were hurt.
 
junglerot said:
Regarding Patton and his great respect for Veterans:

In June 1932 a small band of World War One Veterans calling themselves the Bonus Expeditionary Force or BEF started gathering in Washington to protest Congress' delay in the payment of the War Bonds(bonus') they were promised. By mid August their numbers had grown to between 15,000 and 40,000 depending on the source as more and more Veterans and their families gathered in Washington demanding that they be paid. President Hoover ordered General Douglas Macarthur to evict the Veterans. Macarthur ordered then Majors George Patton and Dwight Eisenhower to mobilize the Federal troops out of Fort Myers, Virginia.

Gen. Douglas MacArthur, blah, blah, blah, blah........

Remember that "All Enemies Foriegn and Domestic" bit you mentioned?

Guess what sparky?

You have 15,000 to 40,000 Angry people in your capital demanding money, it sounds awful lot like extortion at best, rebellion at worst. The D.C. Police shot the 2 Veterans who died BEFORE the Army was ordered in, NOT the Army, so your disengenuous in trying to make out the Army was responsible for their deaths.....

What Patton has to do with this is beyond me, but I note your hypocrisy in trying to cast Aspersions onto him. Smedly Butler was a Nutter, and a Left wing disaffected loon who happened to be personally brave.

By the way, the Bonuses werent delayed, they were scheduled for payment in 1944. These persons said the hell with that and demanded cash then and there.

The Adjusted Service Certificate Law is a United States federal law passed in 1924 that granted veterans of World War I "bonus" certificates the following year that would be redeemable after a maturation period of 20 years for $1 dollar in cash for each day served in the United States and $1.25 dollars for each day served abroad.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=38:1.0.1.1.13&idno=38
 
Code:
You have 15,000 to 40,000 Angry people in your capital demanding money, it sounds awful lot like extortion at best, rebellion at worst. The D.C. Police shot the 2 Veterans who died BEFORE the Army was ordered in, NOT the Army, so your disengenuous in trying to make out the Army was responsible for their deaths.....

What Patton has to do with this is beyond me, but I note your hypocrisy in trying to cast Aspersions onto him. Smedly Butler was a Nutter, and a Left wing disaffected loon who happened to be personally brave.

By the way, the Bonuses werent delayed, they were scheduled for payment in 1944. These persons said the hell with that and demanded cash then and there.

The Adjusted Service Certificate Law is a United States federal law passed in 1924 that granted veterans of World War I "bonus" certificates the following year that would be redeemable after a maturation period of 20 years for $1 dollar in cash for each day served in the United States and $1.25 dollars for each day served abroad.

ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi...mp;idno=38


The points are, brick of gold:

In 1932 the Veterans of the bonus march returned to future promises of grateful reward for their service only to find themselves in a depression economy. Their stellar training and above and beyond the call of duty service did not guarantee even minimal employment upon their return. Leading to the question: Are those who serve while the vast majority remain comfortable and untouched by war at home, entitled to any special compensation for their service? Should they be promised employment or a return of the security left behind? Is it more difficult for a wounded or traumatized veteran to find and maintain employment than their civilian counterparts?

The bonus marchers legally petitioned congress to change the nature of their payments that they might get their bonuses early and avoid starving to death while awaiting the arrival of 1944. The House passed the bill for immediate payment of bonuses but the Senate voted against it 68 to 18. The funds necessary would alter the depression-era promises of the politicos. The veterans were resolved to stay until the bonuses were paid. All citizens of a purported democracy have a right to speak out against inequity or injustice. Veterans presumed the right to assemble and speak freely, especially upon the “hallowed” ground of Washington D.C. because it was their sacrifice as veterans which supposedly preserved these rights.

As a result, two were shot and killed by the D.C. police. The children of two others died as a direct result of the military assault on the veteran encampment. Many were wounded by gas and bayonets leading to an "overflow" of patients in the D.C. hospitals. Ultimately the veterans were driven from the capitol. These were not a few “Leftists” or “Reds” as the government attempted to portray them at the time but an army of 10 – 40 thousand veterans which was growing daily. They represented a black mark upon those in power and were made to disappear. Should veterans have a right to speak out and be heard with regards to their needs? Does the government or the society have an obligation to listen?

This treatment has repeated itself again and again throughout the contemporary history of America’s veterans. It took over 30 years to acknowledge the harmful effects of dioxins upon exposed veterans. Combat related PTSD, acknowledged by a variety of names back to the times the Greeks and Romans, was recognized as an “official” after effect of combat in the U.S. in I believe 1986 by its inclusion in the DSMIV. Primary treatment still consists of psychosomatic mood altering drugs that keep veterans in a zone and do little to address the causes of the disease. Many veterans of recent conflict are told their conditions are “pre-existing” leaving them to their own devices when coping with their trauma(usually self-medicating with excessive drugs and alcohol). The jury is still out on exposure to D.U. and Gulf War Syndrome and the Brain trauma centers have been promised by not yet constructed. The problem of course is a scarcity of money at a time when U.S. spending on defense related purposes is $1 trillion annually.

So regarding “all enemies foreign and domestic” …Does one get pissed off at the guy you went to work with every day or the employer, the guy who offered you a sweet deal when he signed you on but neglected pointing out the fine print regarding long term consequences of employment?
 
junglerot said:
The points are, brick of gold:

In 1932 the Veterans of the bonus march returned to future promises of grateful reward for their service only to find themselves in a depression economy.
As did the rest of the world, skip the advertisement for the Socialist Workers Party......

junglerot said:
Their stellar training and above and beyond the call of duty service did not guarantee even minimal employment upon their return.
They (including My Grandfathers)did their Job, lets not make out that every Doughboy was a Medal of Honor recipient. I'm sure the UK readers here would think that's typically American to talk like that. We fought for at most 9 months of a war that Killed Millions of Europeans for 4 years. Our contibution was minor in comparison to their sacrifices. Making us out as some rambos in puttees wont work. Their right to Employment then wasnt anything different than any war previously.

junglerot said:
Are those who serve while the vast majority remain comfortable and untouched by war at home, entitled to any special compensation for their service? Should they be promised employment or a return of the security left behind? Is it more difficult for a wounded or traumatized veteran to find and maintain employment than their civilian counterparts?
As a Wounded Veteran I had no Problems gaining employment, and didnt use my status as a Veteran (wounded or otherwise to gain that employment). Not everyone who serves is Traumatized, far from it. You act like those who Serve are Victims of some vast conspiracy, we're not victims, we're ordinary Joes.

junglerot said:
The bonus marchers legally petitioned congress to change the nature of their payments that they might get their bonuses early and avoid starving to death while awaiting the arrival of 1944. The House passed the bill for immediate payment of bonuses but the Senate voted against it 68 to 18. The funds necessary would alter the depression-era promises of the politicos. The veterans were resolved to stay until the bonuses were paid.
Aka Extortion

junglerot said:
All citizens of a purported democracy have a right to speak out against inequity or injustice.
What injustice? the money owed was promised to be paid in 1944,the Veterans knew this fully well. There was no right to Immediate recompence on demand, and in fact the monies wound up being paid sooner since the congress changed the act in 1936. Do you suddenly change when you have to pay your rent/bills/etc. at a whim? I highly doubt it.

junglerot said:
Veterans presumed the right to assemble and speak freely, especially upon the “hallowed” ground of Washington D.C. because it was their sacrifice as veterans which supposedly preserved these rights.
Veterans have the same rights to assemble as any other Citizen. However when that assembly threatens extortion(ie: will not leave until they get their money) then it becomes an Illegal assembly.

junglerot said:
As a result, two were shot and killed by the D.C. police. The children of two others died as a direct result of the military assault on the veteran encampment.
Alleged, no one can verify that
junglerot said:
Many were wounded by gas and bayonets leading to an "overflow" of patients in the D.C. hospitals. Ultimately the veterans were driven from the capitol. These were not a few “Leftists” or “Reds” as the government attempted to portray them at the time but an army of 10 – 40 thousand veterans which was growing daily.
Should any group have the right to extort monies from the government and ultimately the Taxpayer in such a Manner? They petitioned Congress in a Democratic Manner, it was voted down in a Democratic Manner. To then say tough we will stay here until we get our money is a Threat.


junglerot said:
So regarding “all enemies foreign and domestic” …Does one get pissed off at the guy you went to work with every day or the employer, the guy who offered you a sweet deal when he signed you on but neglected pointing out the fine print regarding long term consequences of employment?

What Sweet deal are you blathering on about dude? No One sold me a Bill of goods when I enlisted voluntarily in 1981. I knew what the Military, the Army in Particular and the Infantry specifically were about. You really need to lay off the 1960's Hallucinigenics. I dont need to hug a hippie and sing Kumbaya because I served in Combat. I'm fine, everyone I knew who was with me is fine, we arent Victims.

You originally mentioned the Oath enemies line as an sideways mention of the government being the enemy. You then write a romance novel of effusive flowery nonsense filled with the typical socialist claptrap.

And again, what any of this had to do with Patton is beyond me

Unless of course you think my signature quote is the Patton in question(in which case, some reading comprehension is in order for you).
 
As did the rest of the world, skip the advertisement for the Socialist Workers Party......
One bonus march veteran when interviewed said, “I wouldn’t care about the money if they’d just help me find a job.” The vast majority of America did not suffer nor attend the war as did (as you point out later ), the civilian populations of Europe. We only suffered a shortage of the surpluses to which we’d become accustomed.

They (including My Grandfathers)did their Job, lets not make out that every Doughboy was a Medal of Honor recipient. I'm sure the UK readers here would think that's typically American to talk like that. We fought for at most 9 months of a war that Killed Millions of Europeans for 4 years. Our contribution was minor in comparison to their sacrifices. Making us out as some rambos in puttees wont work. Their right to Employment then wasn't anything different than any war previously.

I’m saying only a little over 1% of the U.S. population are combat veterans, only 1 in 6 of all veterans have seen combat. What line of work does killing millions of Europeans, or Iraqi’s or Afghani’s or Vietnamese train you for? One of the promises of enlistment and or deployment is the ability to return to the job you left behind. How many employers will hold jobs open or can afford to hold jobs open for 15 months? 18 or twenty months when your deployment is extended? Rambos? Hardly, bullies with bullets more the point.

As a Wounded Veteran I had no Problems gaining employment, and didnt use my status as a Veteran (wounded or otherwise to gain that employment). Not everyone who serves is Traumatized, far from it. You act like those who Serve are Victims of some vast conspiracy, we're not victims, we're ordinary Joes.

As an ordinary Joe you sound incredibly lucky, apparently suffering only ordinary wounds and not the poly- trauma common to many of the wounded OIF and OEF veterans. I’m sorry to have to be the one to tell you but those “ordinary Joe” type jobs are just not as easy as they used to be when you’re missing a limb or have had your skull rattled. And yes some of those “girly-men” who probably covered your ass from time to time do become emotional when they think about their buddies who were just turned to hamburger meat beside them or the mother and child hit by stray automatic weapons fire while tracking “insurgents.” I know. "its war mot a vacation" they're not innocents but “collateral damage.” It would be nice if one could use that argument in court on this side of the water, we could all get rid of our own self defined undesirables. Of course some people don’t feel emotions about these things because for them its “just a job.” I hope your luck continues and you are fortunate enough to have the latter move into your neighborhood and not my own.

Extortion:

I get it: Like asking for emergency medical treatment for a heart attack but first having to fill out the required paperwork before the actual procedure can begin.

Do you suddenly change when you have to pay your rent/bills/etc. at a whim? I highly doubt it.

No, things suddenly change when you return home, are discharged from service and find you have no job nor skills or a new disability which make paying your rent/bill/etc. far more difficult than they were before you left.

Extortion (ie: will not leave until they get their money) then it becomes an Illegal assembly:

They still have a right to redress and I guess the illegality of hanging around applies to striking workers, or integration or just about anything else that isn’t done the way those in power want it done.

As a result, two were shot and killed by the D.C. police. The children of two others died as a direct result of the military assault on the veteran encampment.
Alleged, no one can verify that

I ‘ll have to give ya this too and the fact that the hundreds who visited the hospitals with bayonet stab wounds or suffering from gas inhalation are alleged as well cause I don’t have hard evidence pointing to specific soldiers who were carrying weapons with fixed bayonets or gas grenades that day. Must not have really happened.

Should any group have the right to extort monies from the government and ultimately the Taxpayer in such a Manner? They petitioned Congress in a Democratic Manner, it was voted down in a Democratic Manner. To then say tough we will stay here until we get our money is a Threat.

Should the government have the right to extort monies from the taxpayer? If the money I contribute is my own shouldn’t I have some say about how it’s spent? If I’m wounded or in the above case an unemployed and hungry veteran, shouldn’t I have the right to insist that money set aside for me be given to me? Oh, sorry that takes us back to the emergency room example and socialism and all that other un-American stuff.

What Sweet deal are you blathering on about dude? No One sold me a Bill of goods when I enlisted voluntarily in 1981. I knew what the Military, the Army in Particular and the Infantry specifically were about. You really need to lay off the 1960's Hallucinogenic. I don't need to hug a hippie and sing Kumbaya because I served in Combat. I'm fine, everyone I knew who was with me is fine, we aren't Victims.

No one sold me a bill of goods when I volunteered in ’67 either. But they did mention that we would be cared for if injured and we would be trained for gainful employment if disabled. They promised school omitting just of few of the conditions that would be required to obtain it. They also hinted that the skills we learned, our military training, would be useful upon or return to civilian life. I don’t know who trained you but we learned to kill people efficiently. I haven’t found much of a legal calling for that outside the military. Again you were a lucky guy, I guess you got to play a lot of realistic video games or you grew up in a rough neighborhood because all the toy soldiers, playing soldier, comic books, movies and tv shows I experienced growing up didn’t even vaguely resemble walking point in Vietnam. Perhaps you should take your own advice; Get off the Soma and try some hallucinogens. I served in Combat as well and for most of those with whom I served its all about SNAFU. More of us have died as a result of post-war trauma and injury than the 58,000 we lost in combat. You and all your “fine” friends come talk to me in about twenty years after you’ve had a fair amount of time to play house with the VA that cares so much about you. (I guess you could even offer to pay them for those medical bills out of pocket from that great job you got.)

You originally mentioned the Oath enemies line as an sideways mention of the government being the enemy. You then write a romance novel of effusive flowery nonsense filled with the typical socialist claptrap.

No, the government isn’t your enemy they’re your friends, that’s why they invite you to their soiree's and their summer homes for the weekend. Surely you’re dating a Congressman’s daughter?

And again, what any of this had to do with Patton is beyond me

Nothing I stand corrected

Unless of course you think my signature quote is the Patton in question(in which case, some reading comprehension is in order for you)
.
Perhaps you’re right again, I didn’t have Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, and W to serve as my role models during my formative years. Good Luck
 
Top