US Army Fielding XM-25 In Afghanistan

#2
I filed a patent for a weapon that can self-navigate through serpentine corridors and tunnels. Interestingly enough their motion is an emergent property of otherwise dumb munitions, therefore it would be cheap to manufacture - rather than any complex and expensive autonomous behaviour that smart munitions may have. E.g. just think about how pollen gets everywhere despite having no intelligence or guidance system.

I spoke to someone in the UK MoD about it but he said he was concerned it may be deemed as an indiscriminate weapon because the user has no control over which corridors it goes down. If one dumps a truckload of these down the opening of a cave in Afghanistan, they will self-explore all the nooks and crannies for you.

But because it was deemed to be an indiscriminate weapon, it was never developed into a research proposal.
 
#3
#4
Presumably with such a small projectile, lethality is conferred not by blast but by fragmentation. I wonder:

1) How effective this weapon would remain vs. a well equipped army. We won't always be fighting unarmoured enemies and provision must be made for being able to fight enemies with anything from flak vests to NIJ IV armour.

2) What proportion of the lethality is conferred by fragmentation vs. blast effects. Current b0dy armour may protect against shrapnel but still leaves the wearer vulnerable to blast effects. What is the lethal radius of the round, assuming all fragments are arrested by the target's b0dy armour?
 
#5
I wonder why they went for this instead of MV 40mm grenades? MV grenades can be fired from M203 or UGL, equal to the M-25 in range and fires a larger round, doesn't require any new weapon/launcher to be bought, just the ammunition and appropriate training to use longer range rifle grenades, and is more flexible combining the rifle and UGL on one bloke instead of just the 25mm, unless he'll be carrying an M-4 as well, which seems like a lot of weight...
 
#7
Very nice, but if the graphic is to be believed, the only rounds currently available are either training or high explosive bursting.

Edited to add: Good old Picatinny Arsenal. I know it well. There's boffins running around all over that place - engineers scientists, etc. Not too many soldiers though. I used to leave my office window open in the summer and you would hear the boom of artillery as the clucks worked out the kinks of some munition. :eye:
 

BrunoNoMedals

LE
Kit Reviewer
#8
I got the impression from those articles, particularly the second, than these rounds don't penetrate the walls at all. I'm certainly no expert, but can you see a 25mm low-velocity grenade penetrating a mud-brick compound wall at 2000ft?

To me it read like they were all airburst. You laze the wall, add 1m, and aim just above. Round goes over and detonates behind them. Does that not seem a bit more feasible? It also makes wadis less safe - you can't penetrate a wadi that's below ground level, but an airburst just over it would do some damage. A post-op brief I saw from 2PARA in Abbey Wood asked for just that capability ~18 months ago.
 
#10
Very nice, but if the graphic is to be believed, the only rounds currently available are either training or high explosive bursting.

Edited to add: Good old Picatinny Arsenal. I know it well. There's boffins running around all over that place - engineers scientists, etc. Not too many soldiers though. I used to leave my office window open in the summer and you would hear the boom of artillery as the clucks worked out the kinks of some munition. :eye:
Old graphic-thermobaric round has been successfully tested all the way back in 2004.
 
#11
I thought this was about a completely different weapon system when i read the title. Wasnt XM-25 the name for a prototype assault rifle that the Yanks were trialling? Not sure how long ago but to me it looked very promising but was called off due to budget constraints i think.

I could be wrong however
 
#12
I thought this was about a completely different weapon system when i read the title. Wasnt XM-25 the name for a prototype assault rifle that the Yanks were trialling? Not sure how long ago but to me it looked very promising but was called off due to budget constraints i think.

I could be wrong however
This is one:

http://www.snipercentral.com/m25.htm
 
#14
Ah i got the names mixed up. From the OICW Wikipedia page -

XM8 and XM25
This resulted in the army starting development on new weapons, and finally shelving the XM29 in 2004. The kinetic energy component split off into the XM8 rifle program and the airburst component developed into the XM25 airburst weapon. According to a presentation by Major Kevin Finch, Chief of the Small Arms Division of the Directorate of Combat Developments at the U.S. Army Infantry Center, there were three main parts to the OICW program

It was the XM8 i was thinking of but i guess the two are related in a way.

XM8 rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First played with it in SOCOM, is that sad?
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
A thought on this; the soldier lases the wall, aims above the wall and adds a metre. He fires the round which, the theory goes detonatates directly above the baddie.
Presumably the round will be going bloody fast at this point, wouldnt the momentum of the blast carry the fragments on past the target, quite likely leaving the afore mentioned baddie somewhat stunned, muttering "wtf was that??"
 
#16
A thought on this; the soldier lases the wall, aims above the wall and adds a metre. He fires the round which, the theory goes detonatates directly above the baddie.
Presumably the round will be going bloody fast at this point, wouldnt the momentum of the blast carry the fragments on past the target, quite likely leaving the afore mentioned baddie somewhat stunned, muttering "wtf was that??"
I don't know what the MV of the XM-25 is, but the Daewoo K-11 (a similar concept) is around 200m/s. Lethal fragments from an airburst are going to be closer to 1000m/s, so the effect of forward velocity is less pronounced.

It's also likely that the round will be designed to create a fragment pattern which allows for forward velocity.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#17
I don't know what the MV of the XM-25 is, but the Daewoo K-11 (a similar concept) is around 200m/s. Lethal fragments from an airburst are going to be closer to 1000m/s, so the effect of forward velocity is less pronounced.

It's also likely that the round will be designed to create a fragment pattern which allows for forward velocity.
Yep that is the case from what I have seen of the test videos for both the XM-25 and K-11, the round fragments above the target both to the rear a forward of the detonation point forming a shape analogous to two triangles joined at the apex (the apex being point of detonation).
 
#20
A thought on this; the soldier lases the wall, aims above the wall and adds a metre. He fires the round which, the theory goes detonatates directly above the baddie.
Presumably the round will be going bloody fast at this point, wouldnt the momentum of the blast carry the fragments on past the target, quite likely leaving the afore mentioned baddie somewhat stunned, muttering "wtf was that??"
Assuming a subsonic round, the velocity of the 25mm grenade could be up to 300m/s. 200m/s over the head of the target is probably a better estimate. A typical upper limit for fragment velocities is 2km/s.

So a fragment that would be travelling vertically downwards would have an angle of atan(0.1) or 5.7 degrees due to the initial forward velocity of 200m/s.
 

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