Urgent advice required

A_Frayed_Knot

Old-Salt
jt9563 said:
For shitty regimental crap indeed, all the time! But if 5 civvies have lodged a compliant, I suspect it is not minor. If he is innocent, go for it by all means, but if he riled them or aggrevated the situation or there is more to this than meets the eye, he would need to way up his Pro's and Cons and have a ggod think about whether it is worth it.
Surely it should not matter that there 5 of them if they were all together, they all stuck together with their story.

The (his) story is he was riled first, they tried to push in front of hm in a cab rank with one of them getting in the cab, he dragged that one out of the cab, he was hit by another one then retaliated another came for him and he defended himself. He was riled first, then he was hit first. In all honesty tt sounds like a load of old handbags and a couple of cut lips to me.

I am not sure how he will be able to weigh things up but on reflection and as previously stated with some research and some of the opinions here the CM seems a reasonable route especially with the prospect of someone thinking there is no real evidence to proceed with and therefore dropping the thing totally.
 

jt9563

War Hero
[quote="A_Frayed_Knot]The (his) story is he was riled first, they tried to push in front of hm in a cab rank with one of them getting in the cab, he dragged that one out of the cab, he was hit by another one then retaliated another came for him and he defended himself. He was riled first, then he was hit first. In all honesty tt sounds like a load of old handbags and a couple of cut lips to me.[/quote]

My point is that I doubt very much the 5 witnesses that lodged the complaint will give evidence saying "We all pushed in front of him to steal his cab, when he asked us to give it back we refused. When X got in the cab, he, with minimal force, removed him from the cab. It was at this point I hit him.

You're much more likely to get 5 identical stories saying your son tried to steal their cab and when he forcefully tried to pull one of them out, he hit him in self defence.
 

A_Frayed_Knot

Old-Salt
To finish off the story for the day - my son sought out the RSM this afternoon to ask for representation and pursue the possibility of a court martial. As I understand from my lad, the RSM winked at him in a knowing fashion (as if he knew what the top man was going to say/do on Monday, and told him not to worry and go and have a peaceful weekend. He said that he was a young soldier once and that these things happen and thats the way the army is - a sort of re-assurance I suppose, with the exception that possibility he was just 'yeahing' him off on a Friday afternoon.

Will let those of you responded, or those reading know what happens in due course.

Having downloaded and read through the publication 'a soldiers rights' I think I am right in saying that if you are not happy with the outcome of what the CO says you can appeal and go to court anyway. Maybe I have misread and misunderstood that as it would seem the logical thing for anyone charged with an offence to do.

Have a good weekend chaps and chapesses
 

Friendly_Fire

War Hero
Wouldn't it be sensible to ask the legal team for advice?

Presumably he can do this *before* electing to go to a court martial.

If I wasn't sure about this decision (unit justice vs court martial), first thing I'd do is speak to a lawyer. If the lawyer says, "Mate, your likely to lose on what you've told me" then he needs to go back to the CO.

I'd have thought. But I have absolutely no experience of military justice as I have never been in trouble and, being an attached asset, have no-one under my command.

Good luck either way.
 

A_Frayed_Knot

Old-Salt
Just to tuck this one up for bed. Son elected to face the CO today after the 'knowing wink' from the RSM on Friday afternoon. The man in charged looked through the paperwork and said not sufficient evidence, and ordered my lad to march straight out the office.

Afterwards the RSM said to him not to go out celebrating tonight and beating anyone up, in what sounded like quite a fatherly manner, which struck me as a nice thing.

My son seems to think that all of the pantomine has to happen under the Queens regulations. I am just a tad surprised that once the RMP have dealt with things and they can see there is no evidence why they dont just file the thing away rather than going through with the trial/hearing (or whatever it is called).

Cheers to all those who offered advice.
 

blind662

Old-Salt
A_Frayed_Knot said:
I am just a tad surprised that once the RMP have dealt with things and they can see there is no evidence why they dont just file the thing away rather than going through with the trial/hearing (or whatever it is called).

Cheers to all those who offered advice.
Probably done (may be) to make your lad think next time if this sort of thing happens again,to walk or not to hit the face and use the body :D :D :wink:
 
I was savagely attacked, ney viciously attacked by 3 locals in Munster, many years ago, I defended myself and the nation vigorously to the extent that the locals only received injuries relevant to the training I had received, sadly I lost in front of the CO, £200 march out and that was in 82, nearly destroyed me financially, if he did it tell him to own up, I was getting 14 days at the time :lol:
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
A_Frayed_Knot said:
My son seems to think that all of the pantomine has to happen under the Queens regulations. I am just a tad surprised that once the RMP have dealt with things and they can see there is no evidence why they dont just file the thing away rather than going through with the trial/hearing (or whatever it is called).
just to reassure you - they do not have to go through that rigmarole, it's up to the CO. mine threw out something similar years ago, without the charade.

perhaps your kid should take it as a shot across the bows, that they bothered to march him in front of the CO...
 
A

ALVIN

Guest
The fact is, your son knows if he did it. On that basis, has he told you that he did it ? (please reply)
 

A_Frayed_Knot

Old-Salt
Just to clarify, my son threw punches after being hit first. He has never said anything different to that.The German blokes seemed to have complained after the event after coming off second best it would appear.

It would appear that common sense has prevailed at the end of the day.
 
A_Frayed_Knot said:
Just to tuck this one up for bed. Son elected to face the CO today after the 'knowing wink' from the RSM on Friday afternoon. The man in charged looked through the paperwork and said not sufficient evidence, and ordered my lad to march straight out the office.

Afterwards the RSM said to him not to go out celebrating tonight and beating anyone up, in what sounded like quite a fatherly manner, which struck me as a nice thing.

My son seems to think that all of the pantomine has to happen under the Queens regulations. I am just a tad surprised that once the RMP have dealt with things and they can see there is no evidence why they dont just file the thing away rather than going through with the trial/hearing (or whatever it is called).

Cheers to all those who offered advice.
It isn't a pantomime and it isn't a rigmarole: it is part of the due process of law.

Now, I am not a legal expert but, over the years, I have been involved at all levels except being the accused at a Court Martial (but there's still time.....)! So, IMHO, here is what is important:

The process satisfies the SOFA part of German Law; the CO has received a complaint from the German Police (presumably), has investigated (along with the RMP) and decided there is no case to answer. The CO has the power to do so under the Status Of Forces Act. He will have taken further legal advice.

The process satisfies the Army Act which, to a large extent, reflects UK Law.

The process has involved several people and the message that it has sent to the regiment as a whole is that, if you are caught up in a brawl, you will end up spending time with the RMP and then appearing in front of the CO. You should have no doubt that your son and his colleagues will have discussed nothing else for the last few days!

Job sorted!

It sounds as if your son needs to grow up; if his name is constantly bandied around RHQ for all the wrong reasons, he will not have a good reputation!

Litotes
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
He might also need to be careful where he spends his free time over the next few weeks.
 

A_Frayed_Knot

Old-Salt
Litotes said:
A_Frayed_Knot said:
Just to tuck this one up for bed. Son elected to face the CO today after the 'knowing wink' from the RSM on Friday afternoon. The man in charged looked through the paperwork and said not sufficient evidence, and ordered my lad to march straight out the office.

Afterwards the RSM said to him not to go out celebrating tonight and beating anyone up, in what sounded like quite a fatherly manner, which struck me as a nice thing.

My son seems to think that all of the pantomine has to happen under the Queens regulations. I am just a tad surprised that once the RMP have dealt with things and they can see there is no evidence why they dont just file the thing away rather than going through with the trial/hearing (or whatever it is called).

Cheers to all those who offered advice.
It isn't a pantomime and it isn't a rigmarole: it is part of the due process of law.

Now, I am not a legal expert but, over the years, I have been involved at all levels except being the accused at a Court Martial (but there's still time.....)! So, IMHO, here is what is important:

The process satisfies the SOFA part of German Law; the CO has received a complaint from the German Police (presumably), has investigated (along with the RMP) and decided there is no case to answer. The CO has the power to do so under the Status Of Forces Act. He will have taken further legal advice.

The process satisfies the Army Act which, to a large extent, reflects UK Law.

The process has involved several people and the message that it has sent to the regiment as a whole is that, if you are caught up in a brawl, you will end up spending time with the RMP and then appearing in front of the CO. You should have no doubt that your son and his colleagues will have discussed nothing else for the last few days!

Job sorted!

It sounds as if your son needs to grow up; if his name is constantly bandied around RHQ for all the wrong reasons, he will not have a good reputation!

Litotes
The RSM actually said to him that he had not heard of him before this blew up and told him that was a good thing. I fully agree however that he needs to do a lot of growing up, and to be honest, when he enlisted I expected to see some major changes in him - any changes have been slow in coming.

I am not really knocking the way the army deals with things, just a little surprised with the timespan involved (incident in June, arrest in November in front of CO in February), and perplexed why someone didnt look at the matter and see there was no evidence and close the matter before involving the RSM, CO and no doubt countless others.
 
A_Frayed_Knot said:
Litotes said:
A_Frayed_Knot said:
...
The RSM actually said to him that he had not heard of him before this blew up and told him that was a good thing. I fully agree however that he needs to do a lot of growing up, and to be honest, when he enlisted I expected to see some major changes in him - any changes have been slow in coming.

I am not really knocking the way the army deals with things, just a little surprised with the timespan involved (incident in June, arrest in November in front of CO in February), and perplexed why someone didnt look at the matter and see there was no evidence and close the matter before involving the RSM, CO and no doubt countless others.
The evidence and case has to be assembled, checked, agreed and presented to the CO; that all takes time. An additional problem for the military is that LCpl Y might have witnessed the incident and then been posted or deployed to theatre. The RMP has to interview him - and that might take weeks.

Have you looked at the process times for both the Magistrates' and Crown Courts in the UK? It can take forever!

A while ago, the Board for the Court Martial on which I was sitting (for another very complex and time consuming case) was asked if we would assemble to sentence x soldiers who were pleading guilty to a fairly straight-forward matter of affray. As we were at a loose end ( :D ) we agreed. The case had taken well over 2 years to reach the Court. We were horrified and told the Judge Advocate!

As a matter of interest, have you ever visited a Court and watched the process? The Courts are public places and you can just drop in, and it's a real eye-opener! During my first time, I was fascinated that the Courts' staff and the, ahem, "customers" all appeared to be on first name terms! (Not true of Courts Martial, BTW).

Litotes
 

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