Urgent advice required

#1
Can someone please advise me what the implications of requesting a court maritial are as opposed to being dealt with by the heirarchy on camp.

I am somewhat in the dark about things military in general and am trying to research on behalf of my son. He was offered the opoprtunity of court martial and declined (allegedly the senior officer was surprised by his choice). The truth is I am sure he doesnt really know what is good or bad for him as he is a sprog of 20 years old.

Any advice to steer me in the right direction would be much appreciated. Cheers fellas
 
#4
if he is blatantly guilt then he was right to have let the hierachy deal with it. If he is innocent/or there i no evidence then he should have taken it to court.

If the heirachy deal with it then you are going to get a punishment, be it a lenient one or a heavy one, in court, if there is no evidence or the accused is blatantly innocent then it gets thrown out.

The question is; did he actually bash some one in? if yes then was there any evidence?
 
#5
I would say the difference is simple. If he is guilty of the offence get him to be a man, step and say that he did it, show some remorse and let the CO deal with it. If the case is a complex one and your boy didn't do it, then he should request a Court Martial. This will ensure that all the evident is heard and recorded properly and that your son has the right to properly speak for him self and be defended by a barrister - as this isn't the case in front of a CO. What he does retain though at all times is his right to appeal be he in front of the CO or a Court Martial. He will have been given all these details in the booklet called 'The rights of a soldier'. Get him to read it and if you are concerned - read it too.
 
#6
there is a risk when taking it to court though. If you are found guilty in court, then the punishment is going to be much more severe than if you accepted the punishment from the CO/OC
 
#7
Tell him to get a good brief. There are specialists advertised in the back of soldier magazine, if he can't get Army or RAF legal to help. Be aware they are bloody expensive if he can't get legal aid. How strong is his defence, if he's got a good back up, then courts martial can often throw the case out, again it depends on how good his back up/defence is. His hierarchy may have been surprised he didn't go to Courts Martail because of the strength of his case. He should have had an accused advisor for his charge with the CO, and they should have advised him on the best route. Unless of course the advisor hasn't got a clue, and told him to accept the charge cos the advisor didn't want to use any more of their free time. First thing your son should do is ring Army legal, for the best advice. Good luck
 
#8
If he goes infront of the CO then the CO decides to refer it to CM then the powers of the CM are only that of the CO - which I believe are more lenient than a CM?

If he did it and he has held his hands up to it then the CO will probably look more favourable upon him. If however there are mitagating circumstances, ir he was threatened, he is smaller build etc then I would recommend a CM, the RMP/SIB will instigate an investigation based on facts.

By now he should have been appointed an accused advisor normally an officer in his CoC but not in the discipline chain. In that instance he should be able to keep him appraised
 
#9
Well the story being, after a beer fuelled night out with a girl in Osnabruck he was waiting for a cab to get back to camp. Some locals tried to push in in front of him, words were exchanged and then fists were traded. From accounts so far about five of the complainants suffered facial injuries. Although I have never looked at my son through rose tinted glasses I am somewhat reluctant to believe he kicked off with half a dozen locals in a foreign country who were in the main five or six years older than him, and with a girl on his arm.

He has been given the 'rights of a soldier' but only last night - and has been told he may be seeing someone later today.

The scarey thing is a Warrant Officer has just told him to man up and take whats coming his way - which sounds like shit advice to me considering he is so young (although he thinks he will end up being shipped to Colchester and will just get on with it). He has been told, rightly or wrongly that he would have to pay for his own legal representation which laso sounds wrong to me.

The RMP have indicated to him previously that they were struggling to find any eveidence previously.

Sorry it all sounds a bit jumbled up, but getting information from him is a nightmare as he seldom rings home. I am worried things will go against him through making some bad decisions with no one looking out for him.

Am I right in assuming the punishment (if found guilty) is no more severe if electing court martial?
 
#11
so who has made the complaint against him?

If its 5 german nationals vs him on his own then its self defence plea surely

As for the WO he is just preparing him for the worst - which doesnt mean he has been pre-judged.
 
#12
Your son sounds like a right c ock, It was only a month ago that you came on this very forum asking advice about him failing a CDT.

He is not exactly keeping a low profile or keeping his head down is he?

Anyway he is guilty of fighting and at the least bringing the army into disrepute.
Dream on if you think the self defence route will work, RMP and GCP have been dealing with p issed up squaddies since the war ended, your precious is just another one.
Also the fact that the injured parties have wounds don't exactly help things, I mean they didn't injure themselves did they?

Tell him to man up and accept the CO's award, hopefully 21 days in the unit nick and carry on soldiering.


Osta
 
#13
osta said:
Your son sounds like a right c ock, It was only a month ago that you came on this very forum asking advice about him failing a CDT.

He is not exactly keeping a low profile or keeping his head down is he?

Anyway he is guilty of fighting and at the least bringing the army into disrepute.
Dream on if you think the self defence route will work, RMP and GCP have been dealing with p issed up squaddies since the war ended, your precious is just another one.
Also the fact that the injured parties have wounds don't exactly help things, I mean they didn't injure themselves did they?

Tell him to man up and accept the CO's award, hopefully 21 days in the unit nick and carry on soldiering.


Osta
I agree, he sounds like a cock of the highest order - however, I am still his father and as such I am duty bound to look out for him.

As I said previously, I have never looked at any one of my sons through rose tinted glasses and realise they all have short comings. However, if he defended himself against a crowd I do not see why he should be locked up. He has no worries about manning up and doing the time - it is more a worry to me than him.

A prick he may well be, a liar he isnt!
 
#14
From someone who's experienced the trappings of Germany but managed to get out trouble, here's my 2 pence worth:

Always elect CM: I've been let off in the past due to no evidence being presented, and the CO can always opt for CM anyway.

Get legal representation: RAF legal are based in Herford and your son has the right to make an appointment with them with no interference. They also love beating the Army ;)

Keep your mouth shut: The WO who spoke to your son was just telling him to 'man up' so he doesn't turn into a nervous wreck. Tell him to keep the details to himself.

Best of luck, it sounds like self defence anyway, he felt scared and threatened and was defending his girlfriend...wasn't he?
 
#15
A_Frayed_Knot said:
osta said:
Your son sounds like a right c ock, It was only a month ago that you came on this very forum asking advice about him failing a CDT.

He is not exactly keeping a low profile or keeping his head down is he?

Anyway he is guilty of fighting and at the least bringing the army into disrepute.
Dream on if you think the self defence route will work, RMP and GCP have been dealing with p issed up squaddies since the war ended, your precious is just another one.
Also the fact that the injured parties have wounds don't exactly help things, I mean they didn't injure themselves did they?

Tell him to man up and accept the CO's award, hopefully 21 days in the unit nick and carry on soldiering.


Osta
I agree, he sounds like a c*** of the highest order - however, I am still his father and as such I am duty bound to look out for him.

As I said previously, I have never looked at any one of my sons through rose tinted glasses and realise they all have short comings. However, if he defended himself against a crowd I do not see why he should be locked up. He has no worries about manning up and doing the time - it is more a worry to me than him.

A prick he may well be, a liar he isnt!

My Bold, agreed. :oops:

Good luck with it.


Osta
 
#16
I think after a little research (including opinions from here) I may well tell/advise him that the CM route may be his best option. I am inclined to believe that if you are hit first then self defence is the natural course of action.

I am sure that a CM cant believe a bloke would go out with a female for the night and instead of trying to get her home to round his night off would think that steaming into a crowd of older blokes would be the best finale he could have had
 
#17
He only needs to read his rights of a soldier instead of using them as a beer mat. Anyway, here's your DS answer:

42
What are the Consequences if I Elect?

a
If you are found guilty by the court-martial, the court’s powers of punishment are usually limited to those powers which would have been available to the CO had he dealt with the charge. In some circumstances, eg. where a charge has been added or amended, they may not be limited in this way. More information is contained in the form “Information on Election for Court-Martial Trial” (AFA6201) (see para 23g page 15).

b
Bear in mind that the charge that you elected on is not necessarily the charge you will be tried on at court-martial. A different or additional charge may be put, which may be more or less serious than the charge on which you elected, or may even be one that your CO could not have dealt with at all.
c
There will usually be a delay of some months before your case is heard as it takes some time to arrange a court-martial.

d
You will usually need a lawyer at court-martial and can apply for legal aid for assistance with his costs. You may be required to make a contribution towards the cost of legal representation at the conclusion of your case.


I have bold and underlined all the reasons that would make it a stupid decision for him, if he is the LEAST bit accountable.
 
#19
Spot on with that assessment about it being dropped, reference your third point, if the accused opts for RAF or Navy Legal, there is nothing to pay, they're paid by the MOD like all of us, the only thing they can't do is represent you against the MOD, but in this case it's another pissed up squaddie vs the RMP/Army Legal.

Seriously, tell him to press 192 off a military line and ask the operator for RAF legal, easy.
 
#20
For shitty regimental crap indeed, all the time! But if 5 civvies have lodged a compliant, I suspect it is not minor. If he is innocent, go for it by all means, but if he riled them or aggrevated the situation or there is more to this than meets the eye, he would need to way up his Pro's and Cons and have a ggod think about whether it is worth it.
 

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